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	<title>Comments on: One hand clapping.</title>
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		<title>By: brian stouder</title>
		<link>http://nancynall.com/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3934</link>
		<dc:creator>brian stouder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.88.31.129/nancy/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3934</guid>
		<description>&quot;I don&#039;t think I&#039;d have made the decision Michael Schiavo made. But I respect his right to make it. And I don&#039;t think, in the end, what Terri endured on her way to death was any worse than what she endured between 1990 and 2005.&quot;





Fair enough, and understood
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;d have made the decision Michael Schiavo made. But I respect his right to make it. And I don&#8217;t think, in the end, what Terri endured on her way to death was any worse than what she endured between 1990 and 2005.&#8221;</p>
<p>Fair enough, and understood</p>
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		<title>By: Nance</title>
		<link>http://nancynall.com/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3933</link>
		<dc:creator>Nance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.88.31.129/nancy/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3933</guid>
		<description>Well, my heart goes out to you. My own mixed feelings on this case are related to my own mother&#039;s experience with Parkinson&#039;s. I got one -- one! -- doctor to give me the plain-English version of what the endgame would be, and it amounted to this: At some point the muscle failure would include those that allowed her to swallow, and at that point we&#039;d have to make the feeding-tube decision. It&#039;s one thing to say &quot;pull the plug,&quot; but when there&#039;s no plug, when you&#039;re talking about denying nutrition, that&#039;s another thing entirely. We never decided on a course of action. 



We were quote lucky unquote; my mom got pancreatic cancer and died of that before she couldn&#039;t swallow.



But this case -- whew. We&#039;re talking about a woman who was in this condition for 15 years. This wasn&#039;t an old person at the end of a long life. This was a woman who was fine one day, collapsed and never came back. Fifteen years! And she was barely middle-aged. Is the life she had a life at all? What was she, with a brain that weighed less than an end-stage Alzheimer&#039;s patient? A profoundly disabled person? Or something else entirely?



Something else the honest doc told me: There is only one party capable of making this decision, and that&#039;s the immediate family, the ones who knew her best. Terri&#039;s husband made a decision. Her parents disagreed, and fought a truly desperate battle: &lt;em&gt;See, she&#039;s aware! Anyway, she needs therapy. Anyway, she wants to live -- she tried to say so. Anyway, it doesn&#039;t matter.&lt;/em&gt; 



Something was definitely wrong here, but it wasn&#039;t her husband&#039;s wishes. It was people like that daft twit Peggy Noonan, saying, &quot;She looks like one of those people who wake up and ask for a cheeseburger!&quot; It was Bill Frist, a MEDICAL DOCTOR, willing to make a diagnosis based on an edited videotape. It was all the people willing to rattle this poor woman&#039;s bones for their own ends.



I don&#039;t think I&#039;d have made the decision Michael Schiavo made. But I respect his right to make it. And I don&#039;t think, in the end, what Terri endured on her way to death was any worse than what she endured between 1990 and 2005.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, my heart goes out to you. My own mixed feelings on this case are related to my own mother&#8217;s experience with Parkinson&#8217;s. I got one &#8212; one! &#8212; doctor to give me the plain-English version of what the endgame would be, and it amounted to this: At some point the muscle failure would include those that allowed her to swallow, and at that point we&#8217;d have to make the feeding-tube decision. It&#8217;s one thing to say &#8220;pull the plug,&#8221; but when there&#8217;s no plug, when you&#8217;re talking about denying nutrition, that&#8217;s another thing entirely. We never decided on a course of action. </p>
<p>We were quote lucky unquote; my mom got pancreatic cancer and died of that before she couldn&#8217;t swallow.</p>
<p>But this case &#8212; whew. We&#8217;re talking about a woman who was in this condition for 15 years. This wasn&#8217;t an old person at the end of a long life. This was a woman who was fine one day, collapsed and never came back. Fifteen years! And she was barely middle-aged. Is the life she had a life at all? What was she, with a brain that weighed less than an end-stage Alzheimer&#8217;s patient? A profoundly disabled person? Or something else entirely?</p>
<p>Something else the honest doc told me: There is only one party capable of making this decision, and that&#8217;s the immediate family, the ones who knew her best. Terri&#8217;s husband made a decision. Her parents disagreed, and fought a truly desperate battle: <em>See, she&#8217;s aware! Anyway, she needs therapy. Anyway, she wants to live &#8212; she tried to say so. Anyway, it doesn&#8217;t matter.</em> </p>
<p>Something was definitely wrong here, but it wasn&#8217;t her husband&#8217;s wishes. It was people like that daft twit Peggy Noonan, saying, &#8220;She looks like one of those people who wake up and ask for a cheeseburger!&#8221; It was Bill Frist, a MEDICAL DOCTOR, willing to make a diagnosis based on an edited videotape. It was all the people willing to rattle this poor woman&#8217;s bones for their own ends.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;d have made the decision Michael Schiavo made. But I respect his right to make it. And I don&#8217;t think, in the end, what Terri endured on her way to death was any worse than what she endured between 1990 and 2005.</p>
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		<title>By: humble reader</title>
		<link>http://nancynall.com/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3932</link>
		<dc:creator>humble reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.88.31.129/nancy/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3932</guid>
		<description>On Monday, May 30th my family received a call from the acute care unit at St. Joseph hospital in Ft. Wayne. My father died in the middle of the night.



He was aged with a disability, but otherwise functioning and enjoying life. (Slow-developing Parkinson&#039;s cramped his style but wasn&#039;t going to kill him. Given his genetic history and lifestyle he could expect to live well into his 90&#039;s.)



July 2003 he had elective surgury at Parkview Hospital to implant a deep brain stimulator. He drove to the hospital, was able to walk, laugh and talk. After surgery, he looked like a survivor of one of Hitler&#039;s death camps. He told us repeatedly that something went wrong, that the surgeon, physicians and health care professionals knew it, covered it up, and were abusive to him. The hospital and physicians collected every penny they could squeeze out of Medicare and supplemental insurance. They left him for dead and said his inability to recover was due to his &quot;mental attitude.&quot; His family was left to rehabiliate him. The final blow came this spring when he couldn&#039;t recover from the flu. Our family was torn about what to do. His children who didn&#039;t want his illness and impending death to interfere with their vacation plans advocated putting him down. Other children took unpaid leave of absences, put their plans on hold, follwed his wishes and cared for him.

At the end, a neurologist confirmed that the surgery caused a stroke. Had we known that two years ago, he could have received appropriate treatment. My father&#039;s death was unnecessary, cruel and expensive.



We passed on the autopsy because it was meaningless. The death certificate states apsiration pneumonia and complications from Parkinson&#039;s. The truth was far more complicated. 



What happened to my father colors how I view what happened to Terri Schiavo. Her death has broader and long lasting implications than we will ever know. I&#039;m not a far-right nut case. Nor is Ralph Nadar. Nor is Diane Coleman or Senator Tom Harkin. Nor is Joan Didion or Jesse Jackson. There is something very evil and very wrong here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On Monday, May 30th my family received a call from the acute care unit at St. Joseph hospital in Ft. Wayne. My father died in the middle of the night.</p>
<p>He was aged with a disability, but otherwise functioning and enjoying life. (Slow-developing Parkinson&#8217;s cramped his style but wasn&#8217;t going to kill him. Given his genetic history and lifestyle he could expect to live well into his 90&#8242;s.)</p>
<p>July 2003 he had elective surgury at Parkview Hospital to implant a deep brain stimulator. He drove to the hospital, was able to walk, laugh and talk. After surgery, he looked like a survivor of one of Hitler&#8217;s death camps. He told us repeatedly that something went wrong, that the surgeon, physicians and health care professionals knew it, covered it up, and were abusive to him. The hospital and physicians collected every penny they could squeeze out of Medicare and supplemental insurance. They left him for dead and said his inability to recover was due to his &#8220;mental attitude.&#8221; His family was left to rehabiliate him. The final blow came this spring when he couldn&#8217;t recover from the flu. Our family was torn about what to do. His children who didn&#8217;t want his illness and impending death to interfere with their vacation plans advocated putting him down. Other children took unpaid leave of absences, put their plans on hold, follwed his wishes and cared for him.</p>
<p>At the end, a neurologist confirmed that the surgery caused a stroke. Had we known that two years ago, he could have received appropriate treatment. My father&#8217;s death was unnecessary, cruel and expensive.</p>
<p>We passed on the autopsy because it was meaningless. The death certificate states apsiration pneumonia and complications from Parkinson&#8217;s. The truth was far more complicated. </p>
<p>What happened to my father colors how I view what happened to Terri Schiavo. Her death has broader and long lasting implications than we will ever know. I&#8217;m not a far-right nut case. Nor is Ralph Nadar. Nor is Diane Coleman or Senator Tom Harkin. Nor is Joan Didion or Jesse Jackson. There is something very evil and very wrong here.</p>
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		<title>By: brian stouder</title>
		<link>http://nancynall.com/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3931</link>
		<dc:creator>brian stouder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.88.31.129/nancy/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3931</guid>
		<description>&quot;If nothing else, I think the autopsy underlined that while modern medicine considers &quot;brain death&quot; the cessation of independent breathing, there can indeed be another form, and if this doesn&#039;t qualify, nothing does.&quot;



agreed.



for the record, my complaint against post-autopsy &quot;chest thumpers&quot; doesn&#039;t include you. The political forum where I waste the most time had the predictable food fight (pardon the pun) in the time leading up to her demise, and then the predictable (chest thumping) denouement after the autopsy. 



All I&#039;m sure of is: Rule of Law = a good thing; Petty Political Grandstanding = a bad thing; The Real Issues Raised by This Woman&#039;s Fate = unaddressed</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If nothing else, I think the autopsy underlined that while modern medicine considers &#8220;brain death&#8221; the cessation of independent breathing, there can indeed be another form, and if this doesn&#8217;t qualify, nothing does.&#8221;</p>
<p>agreed.</p>
<p>for the record, my complaint against post-autopsy &#8220;chest thumpers&#8221; doesn&#8217;t include you. The political forum where I waste the most time had the predictable food fight (pardon the pun) in the time leading up to her demise, and then the predictable (chest thumping) denouement after the autopsy. </p>
<p>All I&#8217;m sure of is: Rule of Law = a good thing; Petty Political Grandstanding = a bad thing; The Real Issues Raised by This Woman&#8217;s Fate = unaddressed</p>
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		<title>By: Nance</title>
		<link>http://nancynall.com/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3930</link>
		<dc:creator>Nance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.88.31.129/nancy/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3930</guid>
		<description>Brian, if I can be forgiven for adding a few more words to the mountain of b.s. that&#039;s piled up around this poor, dead woman, here&#039;s this: If nothing else, I think the autopsy underlined that while modern medicine considers &quot;brain death&quot;  the cessation of independent breathing, there can indeed be another form, and if this doesn&#039;t qualify, nothing does. 



And yes, Mike, &quot;culmination?&quot; Ick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, if I can be forgiven for adding a few more words to the mountain of b.s. that&#8217;s piled up around this poor, dead woman, here&#8217;s this: If nothing else, I think the autopsy underlined that while modern medicine considers &#8220;brain death&#8221;  the cessation of independent breathing, there can indeed be another form, and if this doesn&#8217;t qualify, nothing does. </p>
<p>And yes, Mike, &#8220;culmination?&#8221; Ick.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://nancynall.com/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3929</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.88.31.129/nancy/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3929</guid>
		<description>Actually, Keith Carradine was in Kung Fu, playing a younger version of Caine.  I&#039;m not sure if it was David or Keith in that scene.



My older son is going through the 5th grade to middle school transition also.  They have a ceremony, but they call it &quot;culmination&quot; rather than graduation.  I don&#039;t care much for the term, since it sort of implies they&#039;ve reached the peak of their lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Keith Carradine was in Kung Fu, playing a younger version of Caine.  I&#8217;m not sure if it was David or Keith in that scene.</p>
<p>My older son is going through the 5th grade to middle school transition also.  They have a ceremony, but they call it &#8220;culmination&#8221; rather than graduation.  I don&#8217;t care much for the term, since it sort of implies they&#8217;ve reached the peak of their lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Mindy</title>
		<link>http://nancynall.com/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3928</link>
		<dc:creator>Mindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:00:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.88.31.129/nancy/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3928</guid>
		<description>I admire your determination and focus.  Spending a fine day such as this shaking hands with a vaccuum cleaner makes you a better man than me, and I salute you.



As for me, I&#039;m heading for the deck with my current read, Stella Gibbons&#039; Cold Comfort Farm, and something with a straw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admire your determination and focus.  Spending a fine day such as this shaking hands with a vaccuum cleaner makes you a better man than me, and I salute you.</p>
<p>As for me, I&#8217;m heading for the deck with my current read, Stella Gibbons&#8217; Cold Comfort Farm, and something with a straw.</p>
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		<title>By: Claire</title>
		<link>http://nancynall.com/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3927</link>
		<dc:creator>Claire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.88.31.129/nancy/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3927</guid>
		<description>Speaking of Tao, you reminded me of a delightful movie that I found both funny and inspiring in a romantic-kind-of-way:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/tao_of_steve/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;

The Tao of Steve&lt;/a&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of Tao, you reminded me of a delightful movie that I found both funny and inspiring in a romantic-kind-of-way:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/tao_of_steve/" rel="nofollow"></p>
<p>The Tao of Steve</a></p>
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		<title>By: brian stouder</title>
		<link>http://nancynall.com/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3926</link>
		<dc:creator>brian stouder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.88.31.129/nancy/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3926</guid>
		<description>Regarding the autopsy &#039;vindication&#039; - the autopsy vindicates that she was never going to get better. 



It also contradicts the story that she initially fell into this coma because of bulemia. 



Jeff Feiger, who championed the cause of Dr Kervorkian back in the day, captures the issue when he asks what sense it makes to starve/dehydrate a person to death when we could give them a lethal injection and reach the same ultimate end much more quickly and humanely. But some people are too cowardly to address that - they&#039;d rather thump thier chest about how &quot;right&quot; they were, and sneer at people who hesitated to embrace the process wherein a defenseless woman was slowly starved and dehyrdrated, until she died.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the autopsy &#8216;vindication&#8217; &#8211; the autopsy vindicates that she was never going to get better. </p>
<p>It also contradicts the story that she initially fell into this coma because of bulemia. </p>
<p>Jeff Feiger, who championed the cause of Dr Kervorkian back in the day, captures the issue when he asks what sense it makes to starve/dehydrate a person to death when we could give them a lethal injection and reach the same ultimate end much more quickly and humanely. But some people are too cowardly to address that &#8211; they&#8217;d rather thump thier chest about how &#8220;right&#8221; they were, and sneer at people who hesitated to embrace the process wherein a defenseless woman was slowly starved and dehyrdrated, until she died.</p>
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		<title>By: Nance</title>
		<link>http://nancynall.com/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3925</link>
		<dc:creator>Nance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.88.31.129/nancy/2005/06/16/one-hand-clapping/#comment-3925</guid>
		<description>Oooh, ouch. Thanks, Dan. At least now you know I wasn&#039;t secretly watching the show while scorning it publicly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oooh, ouch. Thanks, Dan. At least now you know I wasn&#8217;t secretly watching the show while scorning it publicly.</p>
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