Well holy shit, this is a twist, but in many ways an entirely expected one:
Alan just informed me there’s a third word, too — “depose.” Huh.
If it turns out this assailant is indeed an aggrieved client of United Healthcare, this could be a game-changer. We’ve accepted, for so long, the broken, immoral health-care system we have now, and for it to lead to this kind of violence? I’d like to think there’s still room in this country for some soul-searching. On the other hand, it’s not like Ted Kaczynski sparked a deeper interest in environmentalism.
Still, the cold-hearted reaction I’ve seen online — for every “this is terrible” there have been 20 Seinfeld-eating-popcorn “that’s a shame” GIFs. United Healthcare deleted a web page featuring the leadership ranks, with Brian Thompson at the top.
For those who’ve asked, it’s been 40 years since I lived in Ohio, and I likely never will again, although you never know.
At the very least, this is a hot national story that doesn’t involve you-know-who or Pete Hegseth’s mother, so I welcome something else to pay attention to.
Gotta run. Open thread.
Ann said on December 5, 2024 at 11:00 am
Whoa. I realize that doesn’t contribute much to the discussion, but it’s all I have.
Snow day up here. Winter took its sweet time coming, but then it really hit. Second day with the long underwear and the snow pants to walk the dog. Don’t know how I lasted all those years without snow pants. Though I do recommend getting them from Lands End instead of some sketchy place that throws a FB ad at you. They did come. The didn’t come close to fitting. Easy return–just mail them insured to Indonesia, which would cost pretty much what I paid for them. Good luck to whoever picks them up at St. Vinnie’s. I hope they try them on first.
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Heather said on December 5, 2024 at 11:26 am
I don’t condone murder, but denying people healthcare is also a form of violence.
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Sherri said on December 5, 2024 at 11:41 am
As I said the other day, people are angry, and with good reason. Institutions have failed, there is no accountability, and the oligarchs don’t recognize a social contract.
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Dexter Friend said on December 5, 2024 at 11:41 am
I despised Nixon on every front except for his championing good, not perfect, healthcare.
You all know this, but maybe have not read his letter: https://kffhealthnews.org/news/nixon-proposal/
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Pam H said on December 5, 2024 at 11:42 am
Well, I was horrified over the murder of the UH CEO. It was dreadful to see it on TV. I am so tired of these gun guys. After seeing the video of it, I have no empathy for that guy. I hope they catch him and put him away forever, although it’s highly likely that he’ll off himself especially after he realizes his life is over.
@Ann, I have had my snow pants for years (from LL Bean) and I agree that they are wonderful. – so warm and comfy I purchased them to wear when attending outdoor auctions in the winter. I almost always wear them over my jeans, so maybe that’s why they make them bigger than regular pants.
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Sherri said on December 5, 2024 at 12:12 pm
Remind me why we have police?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-selling-restricted-guns-posties/
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diane said on December 5, 2024 at 12:34 pm
I don’t think this will be a game charger at all. As someone said previously, the only benefit will be to executive security companies.
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FDChief said on December 5, 2024 at 12:35 pm
Jim Wright summed up the entirety of the business:
“Family of murdered Insurance Company CEO: Oh, how horrible! We’re in shock, traumatized! Surely our insurance will cover the therapy, counseling, and mental and emotional healthcare we need now!”
Insurance Company of murdered CEO: Aha, well, you’re gonna laugh at the irony, but…”
So it’s kind of a “this is totally not helpful in doing anything positive about our fucked-up healthcare system, but at some point what ELSE did you expect..?”
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Deborah said on December 5, 2024 at 12:59 pm
The whole incident seems extremely well planned and the fact that his get away vehicle was a bicycle is crazy. Knowing now that the bullet casings were inscribed obviously shows that the murderer had been working on it for a while, not a spontaneous act. Although I just watched a clip on the news that said there may have been candy wrappers and a water bottle left on the scene which wasn’t the smartest thing to leave behind with your dna on it.
It would help if the billionaires would start to be concerned about guns in America. Maybe their bought and paid for legislators will start passing gun control bills. Although as Diane said, probably the only outcome will be security company profits.
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Heather said on December 5, 2024 at 1:03 pm
The fact that the shooter went to a nearby Starbucks beforehand and lingered around the hotel in full view of staff and cameras suggests that this was not a professional hit.
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Deborah said on December 5, 2024 at 1:03 pm
Sherri, that gun selling link was eye opening, I also followed a link in that story to a previous story about guns provided to Mexican drug cartels through a complex system of carriers and safe houses etc. Follow the money.
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Jeff Borden said on December 5, 2024 at 1:08 pm
United Healthcare denied the largest number of claims by a good margin. Kaiser Permante had the lowest. No question this was a targeted assassination.
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Deborah said on December 5, 2024 at 2:23 pm
Whoa, I just read on the NYT that the operating profit for United Health was $16 Billion. That’s a lot of denials. I wonder how many people died so the CEO could make a million a month?
I hope they catch the guy who pulled the trigger, partly because I want to know where he comes from, what his motives were etc.
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Julie Robinson said on December 5, 2024 at 3:35 pm
Coincidentally, I’m in the middle of searching for Medicare coverage and I’m filled with rage at the entire process.
United Health Care denied my annual pelvic and pap payment many years ago, supposedly because the doctor coded it wrong. Doc’s office said there’s only one code for annual P&P. I went back and forth between the two for a year, until it was time for the next exam, at which point I had to pay for the previous one before they would do the exam.
Multiply that by a severe or rare illness and denial of coverage? I can understand the frustration.
P.S. I am extremely happy that I will never need snow pants again.
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Mark P said on December 5, 2024 at 4:33 pm
Well, come the revolution, insurance executives might well be among the first against the wall. I wouldn’t be surprised if at some point there is a revolution. I think this is a little early. But give them time. Four years ought to do it.
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David C said on December 5, 2024 at 5:36 pm
We just finished getting Mary signed up for Medicare. What an absolutely stupid process it is. It should be fundamentally simple to get signed up. I can see why people get bamboozled into Part C plans. It seems so much simpler. The shit sandwich doesn’t come until later. So we have three different cards and three premiums. We signed up for Part D completely blind because we know Mary has Parkinson’s. We can’t get in to the neurologist’s to get it confirmed until February. The appointment was made in October. So we have no idea what medicines she’ll be put on for that. We also have no idea how the many different formularies will work with that. I Googled the initial medicines for Parkinson’s patients and it looks like really cheap generics, but who knows. What a weird-assed place this is where even the one everyone with any sense wants is a pain in the ass.
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Sherri said on December 5, 2024 at 5:39 pm
I’m still mad about the stupid “death panels” ads run against Hillary’s attempt at health care reform back in the 90’s. Like insurance companies weren’t already death panels!
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Mark P said on December 5, 2024 at 5:54 pm
I’ve been pissed at AARP ever since they supported the absurd excuse we have for a Medicare prescription drug program. I suppose their thinking was that it’s better than the nothing we would have otherwise.
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susan said on December 5, 2024 at 6:08 pm
You do know this, though, about AARP: AARP licenses its brand to certain products, including Medicare insurance with UnitedHealthcare. That company name sounds familiar.
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Deborah said on December 5, 2024 at 8:24 pm
I looked up my Medicare prescription company and it’s the CVS one, Silver Script or something like that, which doesn’t sound like the worst one, but it’s not great. I’ve had prescriptions that they won’t cover, they cover the ones you get prescribed over time like statins etc but one off things they don’t typically do, at least that has been my experience.
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Julie Robinson said on December 5, 2024 at 10:01 pm
Never, ever get an Advantage program! We had been through some counseling a couple years prior to needing Medicare, but my notes from that got lost in the move. We had to choose during Covid when counseling wasn’t available and we were in the middle of construction; also we didn’t have any doctors here yet, so chose blindly.
Now I understand that once you have Advantage, you can’t return to Traditional Medicare with a Supplement plan unless you are rated. One of us now has a condition that would equal extremely high premiums so we’re stuck.
But I wasn’t happy with the plan we have so called our primary care doctor, which is when I learned that she won’t even take that plan next year, and in fact has a vastly limited number of plans. It’s not just her, it’s all the PCPs in Orlando Health, which is one of the two big practices. The other is Advent, which my mom has, and it turns out they carry their weird religion over into health care. They’re always asking her icky religious questions, and she isn’t religious at all so she’s offended and they seem slightly surprised by her responses.
So I tried to narrow down the other plans and haven’t found a single one with all our doctors, or all our meds. On one we would have to use different pharmacies for different meds in order to get them for zero copay. It’s bizarre how patchwork and complicated it is, and it looks like no matter what we’ll still have a plan where we have to get specialists pre-approved every single visit.
I’ve cried five times today out of frustration.
Saturday is the deadline. I’ve been trying to carve out time for the last three weeks, but someone always needed something and it kept getting postponed. If my hair wasn’t already gray, this would do it.
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Suzanne said on December 5, 2024 at 10:22 pm
When we signed up for Medicare, the insurance guy we went to warned us against an Advantage Plan, especially for me with my previous encounter with cancer. If I relapse, I will need treatments that are not done in this area and will have to go to a big medical center like a university or Cleveland Clinic or Mayo or something similar which are out of network. He explained to us that when you initially start Medicare and sign up for a supplemental plan, they can’t take into account your health history, but if you go to an advantage plan and then switch back, your health history will be in play and your premiums will be high. I have a Mutual of Omaha plan which is about $100 per month. And during enrollment time, I don’t have to do a thing as it just continues without interruption.
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alex said on December 5, 2024 at 11:42 pm
I want you all to know how much I appreciate the candor about Medicare as I’m eagerly awaiting my eligibility in 2 years and worried about how I’ll get through it if these assholes kill Obamacare. I had UHC as my group health plan when I was still working and frankly I think they suck compared to my current CareSource Marketplace plan. I can see why insureds of UHC might go after its executives. They are about as heartless as the Orange Turd they no doubt helped finance back into office.
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Bruce Fields said on December 6, 2024 at 10:11 am
There are a few cases where you can switch back to traditional Medicare from Medicare Advantage, for example if you move out of your Medicare Advantage plan’s service area; “guaranteed issue rights” may be a good search term. See https://www.medicare.gov/health-drug-plans/medigap/ready-to-buy
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Dexter Friend said on December 6, 2024 at 12:27 pm
Jeff Borden, remember how our late friend Michael G. raved on positively about Kaiser Permanente?
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Jeff Borden said on December 6, 2024 at 2:17 pm
We have our health coverage through Johanna’s former employer, KPMG, which for many years used Aetna before switching to United Healthcare. We never had a problem with Aetna, but the number of times we’ve been denied reimbursement has risen dramatically. Health insurance has to be one of the greatest scams in American capitalism. . .useless middlemen feasting on fees generated by being a go-between. But thank dog, no socialized medicine!
I guess it figures that two of the programs that actually have worked well for my wife and I –Social Security and Medicare– are squarely in the sights of two billionaires with zero governmental experience but gigantic egos. Watching the QOPers in the House drool over these fools is nauseating. The stupid, stupid, stupid fools who didn’t read Project 2025, but were oh so incensed by the price of eggs and gasoline are going to be so screwed. And, yes, I will laugh and mock them when reality clamps its steel jaws on their asses.
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Sherri said on December 6, 2024 at 3:52 pm
I’ve been listening to a podcast about the Covenant Moms, a group of moms from The Covenant School, the private Christian school in Nashville that was the scene of a mass shooting. They’re all conservatives and Republicans, and are shocked to discover what that really means when they try to do something about gun control.
Most people don’t pay much attention to politics, until something happens to them directly. So they project what they want onto the party and candidates they prefer, whether or not it makes sense. They don’t want to deport the good immigrants, so of course Trump won’t. They support the Second Amendment, but don’t want mass shootings in schools, so of course, their Republican lawmakers will do the right thing. They just want the bad people punished and the good people rewarded, without thinking very hard about who those people are.
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Julie Robinson said on December 6, 2024 at 4:58 pm
We’re going with a Cigna plan next year since all the doctors I called accept it. I’m exhausted and relieved. I hope I don’t have to move again, but I’ll remember Bruce’s advice. Thanks, all.
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Sherri said on December 6, 2024 at 6:02 pm
The DOGE boys think there lots of savings to be clawed back by privatizing Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and VA health. Sure, in the sense there’s lots of savings on the grocery bill if you just stop eating.
Are the leopards going to eat all the faces? If you’re not a real American, with lots of money, I guess you’re just supposed to die.
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SusanG said on December 6, 2024 at 6:29 pm
In my former life, I worked in “HR” and had to purchase benefits. At one time, United Healthcare was the gold standard. Then, around the mid-90’s, there was a drastic shift. They had a claims processing office in Fort Wayne. People worked there for many years and were paid well. They shut it down and hired people off the street and paid them eight bucks an hour to deny claims. Other companies followed.
My staff were on the way out the door one Friday evening when an employee verbally attacked them and threatened to kill all of them.The problem? He had to pay the $100 deductible. He was a VP making six figures bitching about a hundred bucks. As health insurance became more and more complicated, death threats became the norm for clerical staff who had no control over outcomes. Health insurance was a major reason I left the field.
I have a Medicare Advantage plan and it has worked well for me. I do, however, live in a market where IU Health has a monopoly. I had lymphoma a few years back and they paid all but $4000. My biggest complaint is my PCPs take other positions in the system and I have to find someone new.
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Sherri said on December 6, 2024 at 7:07 pm
Health insurance is bad enough, but it feels like our whole health care system, long held together with spit and baling wire, is just collapsing. I got a notice from my kidney doctor that I needed to schedule my 6 month follow up, due in October. I called the number given, it took a couple of days to get a call back, only for them to tell me they couldn’t schedule it, the kidney doctor’s assistant would have to, and they’d call me. Three weeks later, I finally got a call from them, and got an appointment in January. It makes me wonder why I bothered.
I’d switch to a different system, but from what I can see, nobody else is any better. I’d like to see a therapist again, but my former one retired, and I can’t find one that doesn’t do telehealth exclusively.
So I manage my multiple chronic conditions doing the things I know I have to do, and avoid doctors as much as possible.
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Deborah said on December 6, 2024 at 8:01 pm
Our last evening in Chicago before leaving for NM for the winter. I had a great walk back around 5:30 from a haircutting appointment, walking in the brisk air in the early dark with bright lights all around was a good way to say goodbye to the city for a while. When here I have the lake and the urbanism but looking forward to fires and mountains, in Santa Fe we have a fireplace and in Abiquiu we have a wood burning stove, I miss that when I’m in Chicago. Around the end of February I’ll be looking forward to the hustle and bustle of Chicago again.
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David C said on December 6, 2024 at 8:35 pm
I saw a comment earlier today that they think they’re turning the clock back to America in the 1890s but they shouldn’t be surprised to find out they’re really turning it back to France in the 1790s. Once enough people figure out it isn’t immigrants, women, gays, or trans people that are screwing them over, it’s billionaires, their bunkers won’t do them any good.
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Julie Robinson said on December 6, 2024 at 8:56 pm
Doctors seem to change systems and practices frequently; I suppose the situation isn’t any better for them than it is for patients.
In October a specialist told us she was retiring, gave us the names of two doctors at the same practice, and said call in December after the 2025 schedule went up. Today I did, and neither is with the practice anymore! Looking for someone else, I noticed a doc had been practicing for 39 years and decided he would probably retire soon too. Still on the hunt for a replacement.
United Health Care denies one-third of its claims and is insanely profitable. Probably this shooting was only a matter of time.
Deborah, glad you’re getting out of winter. What I’ve been seeing on the news is horrific. We’re having our version of it here, with temps down to 46° tonight and the heat pump switched to hot air. But NO snow.
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Deborah said on December 6, 2024 at 9:18 pm
Well, going to northern NM isn’t really escaping winter, it’s just a different (better) kind of winter than Chicago winters. It gets quite cold there at night but during the days the sun always shines and it’s a dry cold so not the bone penetrating damp cold in Chicago. While it is becoming more windy in NM it’s not the bitter, cutting wind of the midwest. And indeed it snows in northern NM but it’s a beautiful powdery dry snow if that makes sense and it melts fairly fast except on the north side of things. The parking lot of the condo in Santa Fe is on the north side of the 2 story building and it gets what we call icy lumpy fuck throughout the winter which is not pleasant.
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Sherri said on December 6, 2024 at 10:13 pm
The billionaires seem to have forgotten that they wouldn’t be billionaires without the rest of us. They think they have enough money to insulate themselves from having to engage in a social contract, but even if you pay mercenaries to protect you, how do you be sure the mercenaries won’t turn their guns on you?
Steam control: https://bad-faith-times.ghost.io/were-going-to-need-some-steam-control-2/
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alex said on December 7, 2024 at 9:46 am
My PCP referred me to Gastroenterology back in June because of elevated liver enzymes, but they couldn’t schedule me until March 2025, and then only for a televisit.
I mentioned this to my cardiologist at my annual checkup last week and he told me that Parkview’s entire gastroenterology practice is in a bad state of flux. Several doctors quit, leaving the rest of the department overworked, so the departures have continued snowballing to the point that the practice has become essentially nonexistent. I wonder how much longer they can go on like this.
In the meantime, he’s trialing me off of my statin med to see if that changes my liver numbers and if it does, he’ll find me some other medication.
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Suzanne said on December 7, 2024 at 10:48 am
I had to see a GI doctor during cancer treatments due to elevated liver enzymes. I was at Parkview. The doc I saw was great but actually lived outside of Philadelphia. He came to Fort Wayne for 2 weeks then went home for 2 weeks. He said he loved it because during those 2 weeks, he had no calls, no patient crises, no nothing. He ended up in Fort Wayne because he said doctors get recruitment correspondence all the time and he was just a few years from retirement and thought, why not? He was so great but doesn’t appear he is with Parkview any longer.
I think we will see a lot of this in the future. My oncologist, who I dearly love, is young and told me once that he is over $300,000 in debt from medical school. This is insane. How many potential excellent doctors are out there who decide they simply cannot go into that much debt. Sure, they make good money but that kind of debt is nuts to follow a profession that is desperately needed by society.
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Dexter Friend said on December 7, 2024 at 11:51 am
Musk and Ramaswamy want to simply cut and eliminate VA healthcare as we know it. This is personal to me of course. I am still fuming over the voters who put this shitshow in place.
Here’s some detail: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/11/21/musk-ramaswamy-proposal-slash-spending-could-include-va-medical-services.html
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Jeff Borden said on December 7, 2024 at 12:21 pm
David C.,
I wish my faith in the strength of our citizens was as strong as yours. The Pearl Harbor anniversary reminds me of how this nation –unprepared and with a significant number of Republican isolationists in power– nonetheless responded with a focus and sense of purpose that changed history. I don’t think we’d be capable of that today.
Consider what happened in Brazil, when the authoritarian president tried to stay in power and even encouraged tRump-like behavior by calling on his mob of thugs to attack the legislative buildings. The putsch fell through, the thugs were arrested and charged on the spot and Bolsonaro was thwarted by the people.
In South Korea, when the president declared martial law under flimsy logic, the citizenry took to the street and the legislative branch shut it all down in a few hours. Now, the president is facing impeachment as he should.
But we yawned as a throng of shitheads and fuckups attacked the Capitol building in an effort to keep the orange cancer in office. His party refused to do the right thing and not only refused to impeach him, but almost immediately began rewriting history to expunge the ugly images. Today, the QOP declares the rioters “political prisoners” of the deep state. Where was our outrage? Where was our anger? Where was our passionate response? Well, we reelected the felon and abjudicated rapist. Yay us.
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David C said on December 7, 2024 at 12:40 pm
I understand Jeff. It’s more of a hope than a prediction. Can parents sit there and say “oh whatever” when their kid is sick and they’ve lost their health insurance or mom, dad, grandma, or grandpa lost their VA benefits? Maybe they can. They were promised, though, that it would only be “those people” who would be hurt. I hope that the cold, hard fact that they’re being hurt will rattle them out of their stupor. I guess I’ll find out Tuesday when I go to the office and listen to what they say about him wanting to cancel the multi-billion dollar USPS truck contract that the company I work for has.
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Jeff Borden said on December 7, 2024 at 12:58 pm
David C.,
Maybe my skepticism is misplaced. This “administration” is shaping up to be something akin to Bozo’s Circus, but without the happy intent.
As Dexter notes above, the QOP is now looking at disabled veterans with the same jaundiced eye they apply to any non-straight, white, christian male. Elmo is bragging of plans to destroy Social Security “root and branch.” In the past, I’d view the morons who threw a vote for Donny Convict thinking he would be an economic savior as simply stupid, ill-informed citizens. Not any more. They got high on his anti-immigrant, anti-trans, anti-woman rhetoric and now the dolts will be on the receiving end of the efforts to funnel more money to our oligarchs. And wait until the price of everything soars thanks to Donny Convict’s tariffs and deportations. They won’t know what hit ’em.
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Dave said on December 7, 2024 at 3:28 pm
Take the focus off what’s important and make them think that’s important, that’s all this was about but you all knew that. I feel so helpless watching this and wonder when or if people will wake up. I’m so mad at people like McConnell, that spineless waste of space, and all the rest of the members of that party who give in and gave up. May they all burn. We’re really in for it. I wonder if these supporters really believe that a cabinet full of billionaires and a South African who donated a quarter of a billion dollars to elect this dolt care even the first thing about the vast majority of them.
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tajalli said on December 7, 2024 at 3:41 pm
Even if we manage to survive the coming year – to say nothing of the next four years – and elect a Democratic president and majority, rebuilding the destroyed federal government infrastructure will take another four years at least. Undoing all the damage simply will not happen.
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Peter said on December 7, 2024 at 4:36 pm
Here’s something about the UHC situation I find interesting: Normally, workplace type shootings are easy to investigate. After you take away the number of incidents where the perpetuator killed themselves, a reasonable detective would check to see who had a grudge against the victim – chances are it’s someone who threatened the victim recently.
I once worked at a large bank and one of the tasks of the security department was to monitor threats against employees – they always had a list of people to send to the cops if something happened.
Maybe they haven’t figured out who did it yet because in this case the list is pretty long….
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susan said on December 7, 2024 at 5:18 pm
…like 18,000,000 possible suspects.
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brian stouder said on December 7, 2024 at 6:14 pm
Susan for Thread Win!
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Colleen Condron said on December 7, 2024 at 10:58 pm
Well, if they end Social Security, it’s game over for us. We rely on Husband’s check to help us make ends (barely) meet. And what about the multiple thousands of dollars we have all paid into the system throughout our working years? Will that essentially be stolen from us?
I can’t even.
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Mark P said on December 8, 2024 at 12:53 am
How much would private health insurance cost for a 70- and 74-year-old with pre-existing health conditions? We probably couldn’t afford it. If we had not had Medicare, we would almost certainly be bankrupt by now, with all the surgeries and treatments we have had over the last few years. Committing a murder and spending our last few years in prison might look pretty good by then.
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Dexter Friend said on December 8, 2024 at 12:31 pm
Trump was on with K.W. on Meet The Press spewing bullshit. At one point he said “Social Security people will get what they get.” What does that mean? He did say he wasn’t going to touch S.S. He also said he was not going to interfere with Patel, Tulsi G., Ramaswamy, Musk, in going after anyone who “is crooked.” He was like Pontius Pilate, washing his hands of it all, and turning loose the hounds, ala Montgomery Burns on The Simpsons. Of course, a lie. He will order them to do everything they do. He seems especially keen on getting the drunk-woman beater-sex offender Hegseth to lead Defense. Rest easy, Americans: A drunk under pressure ALWAYS makes great decisions. An old-timer once told me not to declare myself sober until I had 2 years of abstinence plus a string of regular meetings and service. I knew and know what he meant. In recovery, many, most, have relapses and go back to misery. But Hegseth, why, sheeee-ittt! He ain’t got no daggone drinking problem, he even promises to go cold turkey upon confirmation and assumption of the job. We’re in really good hands there. Right….
Dean Rusk was a famous drinker/boozer, but this was not known generally. from Wikipedia: ” Many at the State Department were concerned by Rusk’s drinking on the job with William Bundy later saying that Rusk was a like a “zombie” until he started to drink. McNamara was shocked when he visited him at Foggy Bottom in the afternoon and saw Rusk open his desk to pull out a bottle of scotch, which he proceeded to drink in its entirety. Unlike the abrasive McNamara, who was widely disliked at the Pentagon, Rusk was sufficiently liked by his colleagues in the State Department that none leaked their concerns about his drinking to the media.” END
Now booze is back on the burner.
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