The next week or two is going to suck, audibly. The wood for the floor was delivered today, followed by a visit from the Floor Guy. Who says the schedule is not looking good for a wrap-up this week. The wood needs to acclimate to our microclimate before it can be installed, and then it has to do some other things, and sanding is involved, and the bottom line is, if we want it done right — at this point I always want to jump up and say, “No! Do it wrong!” — it’ll probably be next week before we can reclaim our family room and living room, which is currently serving as a storage room for all the family-room furniture.
Which means we’ve been driven upstairs for our living space. The good news: Alan hooked the cable box up to the primitive tiny upstairs TV, so we can all watch “American Idol” tomorrow night gathered on our bed like a heap of puppies. Yeah, I know it sounds fun, and it probably will be.
At least the kitchen is still operable. When we did our kitchen floor in Fort Wayne, I thought I’d explode if I had to eat another takeout meal.
Because Alan moved the cable box, I got to see “The Sopranos.” Discuss.
I love the way David Chase keeps slammin’ the truth in our faces. All those weeks building sympathy for poor Vito Spatafore, taking his first tentative steps out of what had to be a very large walk-in closet, making his new home in Gaytown, N.H., and then pow — he reminds us that, at heart, like all of these characters, Vito’s just a murderin’ piece of shit. Tony, self-described “strict Catholic,” cheats on his wife, kills his nephew’s fiance, spreads evil like a slug trail… but objects to a homosexual business associate. Carmela, ditto strict Catholic, goes over to bring her destitute friend a surprise birthday celebration, wearing a fur coat and driving yet another in a long line of fancy cars purchased with ill-gotten gains. And then leans on her husband for not leaning on the building inspector harder, so she can build her spec house with substandard materials.
Sooner or later, everyone will get what they deserve. (Bobby Bacala already has, obviously.) I used to think the series had to end with Tony dead. Now I’m thinking it has to be worse. One of the kids has to go. Obviously, it’s A.J., but maybe Meadow, too. We shall see.
So: Bloggage
Mitch Harper at Fort Wayne Observed reports — and I think he’s correct — that my ex-newspaper, The News-Sentinel, is the only one of Knight-Ridder’s Dejected Dozen to have no reported or rumored buyer. I will repeat what I learned in my final years there, which may be the most important thing I learned there: Never say it can’t get any worse, because it can always get worse. Al.Ways. And probably will. Not that not having a buyer is the worst thing in the world — I doubt McClatchy will leave them beside the road like a foundling — but man, it’s gotta be humiliating. Psychological wounds are the worst.
mary said on May 15, 2006 at 7:18 pm
Johnny Sack was looking like a good guy last night compared to every one else. There has to be some real ugliness in the offing for that guy from New Orleans who wouldn’t agree to sell to Tony.
You think the kids are going to die? Wow. That never occurred to me. I always figured Tony would, but now…don’t know. Christopher maybe, Bobby Baccala maybe. Pauly should. He gets on my nerves.
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Mindy said on May 16, 2006 at 6:28 am
We had to let our plastic laminate flooring get acclimated to its surroundings as well. I’m surprised that your wood floor needs so little time to cure before installation. A neighbor put in a beautiful wood floor and then their son returned home after losing his job, and his Lab moved in as well. Their wood floor is now a disaster and they plan to replace it when the son and his dog move out. We opted for Pergo for this reason. It still looks perfect, but our beautful new deck is scratched all to hell after less than a year of life with my dog. I hope that Spriggy won’t hurt the new addition to your home.
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Jim said on May 16, 2006 at 8:00 am
The question is how long McClatchy will continue operating the News-Sentinel. Given the latest circulation figures (now below 30,000 — ouch!), it may be time to turn out the lights. Fort Wayne has to be the smallest market in the country with two dailies. It can’t go on forever.
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nancy said on May 16, 2006 at 9:22 am
Floor Guy says 48 hours in our house should cure our wood appropriately. As for the damage a dog can do, I can only point out that we have hardwood in our living and dining rooms and two of the bedrooms, and the only damage so far was done by the human occupants. Actually, by me.
As for the N-S, the problem is the nature of the JOA. I don’t think it’s public, and whoever knows its contents isn’t saying how it provides for a situation like FW’s, where the majority partner is running the failing paper. Do they have to keep it open, or can they shut it down and just be the JG’s landlord? Has anyone approached Julie Inskeep about selling the JG? These are things it would be nice to know, but neither paper seems inclined to write such a story about itself. The business weekly has pecked around the edge, but seems similarly disinterested, and as for the alt-weekly and TV stations, forget it.
And you know what? Their own editors may well be reflecting the greater opinion of the city. I wonder if anyone gives a fat rat’s gluteus about what happens in what is, after all, the smallest two-newspaper market in the country.
BTW, the circulation has been below 30K for some time. The official figure was always inflated by stuff like special-edition reprints and other gimmicks. Home delivery and paid single-copy circulation is, I would guess, maybe in the high 20s by now, possibly lower. For comparison’s sake, when I joined the paper in 1984, it was around 70K, a year after winning a Pulitzer Prize. When I left for Ann Arbor in fall of 2003, it was at 40K, newly cut by 10 percent or so by slashing out-of-county circulation. We hung on around 50K for years, but when the new publisher came in and started voluntarily cutting our own numbers, I knew the end was near.
(Of course, cutting circulation gives you a built-in excuse to cut the staff, too, since staffing is roughly based on circulation. I suspect they’ll be learning that lesson in Boston very soon.)
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brian stouder said on May 16, 2006 at 10:32 am
Since NNC is busily dealing with other issues, and with reference to the president’s speech last night, nobody asked me, but –
it looks to me very like a coming split within the GOP over immigration; and that’s fine; healthy, even.
American history is full of examples of times when whole masses of people living and working here were considered beneath citizenship (if not ‘subhuman’, outright) History also shows there’s nothing new about fearing certain groups of people who live and work here, but who are not considered proper American citizens. Thomas Jefferson (of the “We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights…” fame) was against emancipation, comparing the nation’s relationship with slavery to having hold of a wolf by the ears; “we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go”.
And then there was the slave insurrection in Saint Domingue, which seemed to confirm all the most lurid slavocrats’ fears –
and we have people today saying “but these illegal immigrants won’t ASSIMILATE! Look at what happened in France with the unassimilated Islamic youth”
And this strikes me as poppycock, since there have always (unfortunately) been riots in cities for one reason and another – and they are always cast by some as (darkly) portentous (so to speak) – especially when the seer is not in sympathy with the riotous group, nor of what they claim the riot portends.
I liked the president’s idea about ID cards and documentation/guest worker laws/amnesty (even though he disavows that word).
As to this idea that such provisions are not “fair” to other prospective immigrants who are ‘waiting in line’ – and leaving aside my (strongly held!) prejudice AGAINST the word “fair” (all moms and dads quickly learn how relative THAT word is!), this again strikes me as poppycock! A fact of life is that people who were born in Mexico can generally get into the United States if they wish to, and Americans will hire them…so we must deal with it.
Congress ain’t gonna help the president with this, because he’s a lame duck (essentially a dead duck); and many GOP members of congress, no longer tethered to the president’s dead agenda, will pander to the lowest element in their ‘base’; and the centrifugal forces within this issue will benefit the Democrats enormously if they step aside and let them tear the GOP apart….if you ask me.
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another Connie said on May 16, 2006 at 11:14 am
Nancy, Nancy, Nancy.
Disinterested = unbiased
Uninterested = not interested
The distinction between these two words is worth maintaining.
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nancy said on May 16, 2006 at 11:34 am
Thanks for the fix, Connie! I appreciate it, and cower in shame before all my readers.
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brian stouder said on May 16, 2006 at 11:50 am
an interesting article about print media & broadcast media, and the internet
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12759674/page/2/
an excerpt –
“Finally, it’s once again worth looking at history. Ten years after newspapers went onto the Web, print circulation is beginning to drop substantially for many papers, while their Internet properties grow by double digits. On the music side, the value of legal downloads tripled in 2005 even as CD sales fell 7 percent, and neither trend is slowing.
It’s only logical to assume that five or ten years out, the television landscape will see a similar shift. Cable, broadcast, satellite — plus the new telephone company fiber-optic systems — will still deliver lots of video, especially high definition. But both consumer video buying and advertising spending will increasingly move to the Internet.
It’s still very early days for the television industry on the Internet, but so far it seems to be doing an excellent job at keeping its business options open. Ironically enough, even though Internet entrepreneurs have always glorified the “first-mover advantage,�? television may demonstrate that the last to arrive at the party may occasionally still have the best time.”
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Danny said on May 16, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Brian, the President’s speech was nothing but doublespeak and empty promises. He essentially is not going to do anything. And I see from your further comments that you have what I would deem a very high tolerance for other peoples’ pain.
We in SoCal and the rest of the southwest have been overrun and invaded by masses of illegal foreigners who are taking jobs from americans, many of them good manufacturing jobs, I might add, and putting such a load on the school systems, the hospitals and other public institutions, that it is near the breaking point. And it really, really, really sucks.
And by the way you are equating this with the struggles of slavery, I can only gather that you have very little idea of what you are talking about.
I can forgive you that being that you are much more insulated from the truth of the matter that we see every day. But for most others on the wrong side of this debate, I have lost all respect. It is infurating when in Orwellian manner they couch this as a civil rights issue. Ridiculous.
And my hispanic colleagues agree with these sentiments.
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Danny said on May 16, 2006 at 2:16 pm
And here is a headline from today’s San Diego Union Tribune:
Packed I-8 van crashes, kills 2: At least two people are killed and two dozen injured, several critically, when a van packed with suspected illegal immigrants crashes on Interstate 8 near the Imperial Valley town of Holtville.
We see this headline dozens of time a year in San Diego.
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nancy said on May 16, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Danny, just in the interest of helping me grasp this a little better, could you give me a couple of examples of how this affects your daily life? Like, for instance, in the schools? We hear a lot of “you just can’t believe what it’s like here” comments, but not a lot of illustrative anecdotes.
A guy I used to work with wrote a column in Las Vegas that got his newspaper’s building picketed some years ago. He pointed out that due to seasonal fluctuations in the construction trades (and the illegal workers who did the work), that some public schools would virtually empty out after New Year’s, and this after starting the year overcrowded. It made it impossible to administer the system in anything other than crisis mode, because of the lack of continuity. Kids would show up unprepared, cause problems for teachers, then disappear at mid-year, with another bunch coming a few months later. And of course there’s no money for any of this.
Here in the midwest, while there are unquestionably illegal workers in certain trades, it’s a much less visible problem. And honestly, I was under the impression that while there are plenty of undocs in the south and southwest, they mainly filled low-end transient jobs that would have gone empty otherwise. So it’s hard to wake up one day — which is what it felt like, a few weeks back — to hear that illegal immigration is at a crisis point. I see you just posted something about car crashes; what other things do you see on a regular basis in S.D.?
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Danny said on May 16, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Nancy, some of this is a recap of what I’ve posted before on this topic, but here goes:
1) Jobs. Many jobs are taken that are or were reasonably well paying contruction or manufacturing jobs. I experienced this personally in the mid ’80’s in the construction industry when I tried for a few years to eke out an existence hanging drywall. I found it impossible to feed/shelter/clothe/save for college when I had to compete with illegals who were willing to live in their cars at construction sites. Now that I am an engineer, I see it at many manufacturing facilities. Doesn;t impact me directly, but those should be good paying union jobs and they are not.
2) Education. Here in Socal, we do not see any seasonal shift. The classes are packed to overcrowding year round with hundred of thousands of kids who do not know english and who come from homes where the value of education is not emphasized. Several of my very close friends are teachers. It is a mess. And everyone is hurt by this from the illegal kids, to the american kids, to the teachers, to the taxpayers, to the society at large. The dropout rate among latinos is something awful, like 40-60 percent, if I remember correctly. Everyone pays for ignorance.
3) Hospitals. Last year we were all treated to dozens of reports of hospitals, primary care facilities and emergency wards having to close their doors in the greater Los Angeles metro district and thoughout riverside and San Bernadino county. They are overwhelmed by number of illegals who have to use thier facilities because they have no insurance and no money. How would any of you like it if you had a real familiy medical emergency and had to drive an extra ten miles and/or wait an extremely long time because of the overcrowded witing room.
4) Housing. This is a health and property values issue. Many otherwise normal neighborhoods have what are termed “clown houses” in their midst. These are houses or condos or apartments where dozens of illegals will live at one time. Real shit-holes. A dozen people to a room, forty to an apartment is not uncommon. One bathroom to the residence. You get the picture. Then there are those who choose to live in the bushes and bath and make their toilet in the local sources of open fresh water. Over the years in San Diego we have had several scares over potential colera an malaria outbreaks in the Lake Hodges area. I must remind you that all open fresh water in SoCal is supposed to be for emergency use. Swimming is forbidden, much less bathing and toilet duties.
5) Crime: Aside from the frequent horrendous traffic accidents, petty and violent crime is greatly increased because we have this influx of desparate poor people. I’ve been buglarized several times. I am positive that all but one was the work of an illegal. In all the areas of SoCal, you will find that each area’s police top ten most wanted is frequented in overhwelming proportion by illegals who are gang members too. MS9 and otehr mexican and central american gangs are all over the area. Not to mention that our jails and prisons are way, way, way overcrowed by illegals.
7) Traffic: Everyone knows that the traffic here is horrendous. But what many of us did not realize (until a few weeks ago when the illegals decided to stay home from work to show us what a day without a mexican would be like), was how blissful it was to drive uncrowded freeways. LA was great that day, according to reports from local radio stations. In San Diego, I had a dream commute.
8) Welfare: I am not an expert here, but I frequently here stories of how the system is being continuously scammed by illegals.
So these are some of the issues I see and hear about every day and not just since this recent national debate kicked up a few notches. If you have time Nancy, go to KFI AM 640’s website an listen live to the ‘John and Ken’ show today at 3-7 PM PDT. The scales will fall from your eyes.
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mary said on May 16, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Danny
First, lets talk about hospitals being burdened by illegal aliens. Hospitals are burdened by uninsured patients. By far most of them are true blue Americans, many employed but not insured.
Then lets talk about illegals taking jobs. Currently we have over 50 openings here at the hospital for unskilled workers. We pay pretty well and we have good benefits that cost little or nothing to the worker. We do not hire illegals, but we can’t find enough people who want to work here in entry level jobs. I personally hire illegals, or people I suspect are illegal, to clear my brush before fire season. I do this because they solicit my business. So do a lot of other illegal workers. I stick with the ones I’ve used for ten years because they do a good job. If some company that only used legal workers came to my door and made me an offer, I would consider them. It hasn’t happened. It’s a miserable job most would not consider asking for.
My kids go to public schools here. How one kid burdens the school more than another, I don’t know, but I do know that in order to qualify for the free lunch program, you have to show proof of your income, as in tax forms, pay stubs with your SSN#, etc. Can’t be illegal and do that. The children of illegals must have parents who pay rent and utilities and sales taxes. I don’t know how much their income taxes would be, making as little as they do, but they aren’t getting food stamps or any sort of assistance, because they’re illegal.
Without illegal workers, the restaurant business, the garment business, agriculture, and hotels would be stuck. No one begging for those jobs. Except illegal workers.
I have Hispanic colleagues, I have Hispanic friends. They resent the criminalization of illegals and those who assist them.They know that businesses who employ illegals probably pay them a lot less, but make just as much money from their labor as they would from legal workers. Theoretically, that would mean higher profits and paying higher taxes. That is unless they cheat on their taxes.
There should be a way for people who need work, who are willing to work, to get jobs. There should be a legal way for employers to fill unskilled jobs. How about raising the minimun wage? How about putting some pressure on Bush’s buddy Fox to make job creation in Mexico easier? It’s crazy to condemn people who simply want to work and have a better life.
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brian stouder said on May 16, 2006 at 3:46 pm
“1) Jobs. Many jobs are taken that are or were reasonably well paying contruction or manufacturing jobs.”
See, to me, this complaint is best aimed at the employer who willfully hires ‘illegals’, thus having god-like power over THEM, while also pocketing money that THEY (the employer) in effect ‘stole’ – in the form of artificially lower wages, plus unpaid Social Security taxes and so on.
This is precisely why I compare this issue to the issue of slavery from our earlier history. Afterall, northern laborers who were ANTI-empancipation voiced all the same fears of depressed wages, and people who wouldn’t assimilate into society.
By way of saying, if jobs/economic pressures are the key to the whole thing (as I suspect), then lots of positive change can be affected by sending white guys to jail for exploiting undocumented workers
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Danny said on May 16, 2006 at 5:48 pm
By way of saying, if jobs/economic pressures are the key to the whole thing (as I suspect), then lots of positive change can be affected by sending white guys to jail for exploiting undocumented workers
Brian, you may have missed it, but this is what I have been saying on this website for a few weeks now. On May 7th:
So yeah, I know what is going on. And I do not blame the illegal aliens. The overwhelming majority are hardworking and honest. They are poor and desparate. We are a rich nation and I have a heart too. The blame lies squarely with our own government who will not govern, the greedy, feckless employers who are never prosecuted and with the corrupt governements of Mexico and other areas where people come from because they have no hope.
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Danny said on May 16, 2006 at 5:58 pm
There should be a way for people who need work, who are willing to work, to get jobs. There should be a legal way for employers to fill unskilled jobs. How about raising the minimun wage? How about putting some pressure on Bush’s buddy Fox to make job creation in Mexico easier? It’s crazy to condemn people who simply want to work and have a better life.
Agreed, Mary. See my post above to Brian.
As far as the rest of what you said, it has a lot of gaping holes in logic. If the restaurants or other low paying jobs are not paying a decent enough wage, the solution is for that to change the wage. Not to keep the wages low by basically importing slave labor that will have to live in the bushes or by scores in a shabby apartment.
Regarding schools, there are literally hundreds of thousands in CA school systems who are illegal. Why you are not privy to this, I do not know. And it’s seems rather obvious that if you have a bunch of students in a class room who do not speak the language and who come from households where education is not valued, things are going to bog down teaching-wise and discipline-wise.
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mary said on May 16, 2006 at 7:21 pm
Danny
One can be legal and not speak English. One can be legal and not value education. I can show you any number of non-English speaking immigrants, from many different countries, who are as legal here as you or I. Of course I’m aware of students from other countries in my kids’ schools. It’s the norm here and has been for decades. I keep my kids in public schools partly for that reason. My son in high school’s best friend is from Haiti, another is from Croatia, another from Estonia, many from Latin America. His teachers are from Russia and Armenia and the Phillipines and Lebanon. I chose to stay in my part of the city because I really value the mix here. I don’t check immigration status of my kids’ friends.
Kids, by the way, seem to learn English very fast when they get to school. They act as translators for their parents. You see it all the time at teacher-parent conference night or back to school night. Again, I don’t check immigration status, so it’s as likely the non-English speaking parents are legal as illegal. It’s not like they wear armbands or something.
I do know I have an illegal Canadian neighbor who has overstayed his student visa by about 15 years. He uses a fake SSN#. No one ever asks him about his legal status though.
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Danny said on May 16, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Mary, I too value diversity and I hope you do not take anything that I have said as indicating otherwise.
I too do not think that you or any other private citizens should be checking immigration status. And I am not arguing for deportation. So please do not take any of this the wrong way.
In fact, you may be surpirsed to know that I am not arguing for any additional laws to be passed. I just want employers to be cracked down upon and more border enforcement. If anyone can just saunter over the border and take up residence, what is the meaning of the word “country” anymore?
And the government is doing absolutely nothing. You all may have read about the 1100 illegals that were rounded up a week or so ago at some company that makes wood pallets. Well it turns out that almost all (like 90 percent) of them were let go, maybe given a ticket to appear in court. You can guess how well that works.
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brian stouder said on May 16, 2006 at 11:05 pm
“I too value diversity and I hope you do not take anything that I have said as indicating otherwise. I too do not think that you or any other private citizens should be checking immigration status. And I am not arguing for deportation. So please do not take any of this the wrong way.”
Well Danny – that statement is good stuff, but difficult to square with
“the President’s speech was nothing but doublespeak and empty promises. He essentially is not going to do anything. And I see from your further comments that you have what I would deem a very high tolerance for other peoples’ pain.”
wherein by “other people” you mean YOU and other taxpaying citizens –
I have very little use for W anymore, but I thought his speech was in line with what you say you DO want – which is new legal pressure on the big employers (and exploiters) of these people, and documentation; and with what you DON’T want – mass deportations.
But the anger that you (along with many others, apparently) evidently feel about this issue is why I believe the GOP is headed for the rocks. I would consider myself a Dick Lugar Republican (or maybe an Evan Bayh Republican – so to speak!), and I’m no more likely to support draconian measures (like massive walls or mass deportations) than others are to accepting forthright amnesty and guest-worker provisions.
So be it
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Danny said on May 17, 2006 at 10:15 am
Well Danny – that statement is good stuff, but difficult to square with
Brian, I don’t know exactly what you meant there, but it sounds like you are inferring that I am a racist. If you are not, then I apologize in advance. But that argument is being made loudly and forcefully against people like myself who merely want to see our nation’s immigration policy enforced in a practical manner. Amazing.
But the anger that you (along with many others, apparently) evidently feel about this issue is why I believe the GOP is headed for the rocks.
Yes, in November, the GOP will be bitch-slapped. And deservedly so. Then when the dems come into power, they will over-reach, in their giddyness, and then there will be the predictable backlash. Hopefully, this will all work it’s way out for the good of the country, but I doubt it.
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brian stouder said on May 17, 2006 at 10:38 am
“but it sounds like you are inferring that I am a racist.”
well first, before ‘the other Connie’ points it out, you (the reader) might ‘infer’ something, whereas I (the writer) can only ‘imply’
But that said, the answer is – nope – I wouldn’t imply any such thing about what anyone says or writes, unless a particular statement is so massively bad that ‘racism’ becomes the only inference one can draw…and in that case I wouldnt pussyfoot around with subtleties.
This issue surprises me a little, given the polar-opposite, rigidly held opinions of so many good folks; the ‘middle’ ain’t very big, and doesn’t look like it will hold (assuming there even IS a ‘middle)
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Danny said on May 17, 2006 at 11:11 am
This issue surprises me a little, given the polar-opposite, rigidly held opinions of so many good folks; the ‘middle’ ain’t very big, and doesn’t look like it will hold (assuming there even IS a ‘middle)
OK, Brian, I will not pussyfoot around either. What may happen, and what I hope happens is that reason will prevail in this national debate. Taking nn.c as an example:
In this whole thread, I have been the only one making reasoned arguments which have been backed up with facts. A situation to which I have had to become accustomed to around here, unfortunately.
On the other hand, you and Mary have trafficked in little more than vague references and anecdotes with the occasional grammar correction thrown in to bolster your position. Indeed, your strongest argument is some muddled explanation of how ‘slavery’ is really the issue and that you somehow have some ethical/intellectual highground because you are in the ‘middle’ in this debate. Whaaa? Mary’s most stunning locution has been that she somehow supports ‘diversity’ because she thinks it is cool to have Mexicans around, living in crap conditions, so that she can have her brush cleared for real cheap. That’s mighty white of you, Mary. Doesn’t anyone else see this? Try paying a landscaper a fair wage and stop being part of the problem, then we can talk.
So, as I said, I am hoping that reason will prevail.
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mary said on May 17, 2006 at 1:00 pm
Danny
I live where I live because I like the city and all it has. Part of this is a lot of different people. My kids learn things from being around people different from themselves. I do not live here because I want to live, in your words, “because she thinks it is cool to have Mexicans around, living in crap conditions.” I want my kids to not grow up to be like you, afraid of people different from yourself. I live in the reality of 21st century Los Angeles, Danny. I don’t live in a gated community or a suburb. My kids go to excellent public schools I’ve worked hard to get them into, and those schools have lots of diverse, urban kids as students. Lots of those kids have immigrant parents who came here, legally or illegally to get good educations for their kids. You assume a lot of things that people who keep themselves at a distance from the realities of living in a diverse society assume. You figure immigrant parents don’t value education and people who dont’ speak English are here illegally. You are wrong. Very wrong.
You think I don’t pay the guys who do my brush clearance a fair wage? I don’t recall giving you a figure, and I did say I always use the same people because they do a good job. I know them and trust them. you also assume they are Mexican. You’re making lots of leaps here, Dan. Is this how you usually form your opinions?
“Try paying a landscaper a fair wage and stop being part of the problem, then we can talk.”
Try not making stupid and insulting assumptions about me. I recall having to correct you about my political opinions once because you made stupid assumptions about me, and now you are at it again. Try thinking before you form opinions. Then we might, maybe, be able to talk.
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Danny said on May 17, 2006 at 1:41 pm
I want my kids to not grow up to be like you, afraid of people different from yourself.
See, now this is the argument you have wanted to make all along. It holds no water for all of the reasons I have stated above, but at least your references to ‘diversity’ are not so vague now. You are calling me a racist and I am calling you on it.
The rest of your comment just devolves into a mess where you further ignore facts and deliberately (or ignorantly) mistate my arguments. I will not address it.
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mary said on May 17, 2006 at 2:10 pm
What facts? You cited things like how much I pay the guys who clear my brush. I did not call you a racist. I said you were afraid of people different from you. You assumed I meant race. You need to accuse people who hold opinions different from your own of self serving motives. You certainly did this to me.
You argue based on mistaken assumptions and accuse me of ignoring facts.
Here’s an example of your “facts.”
“Regarding schools, there are literally hundreds of thousands in CA school systems who are illegal. Why you are not privy to this, I do not know. And it’s seems rather obvious that if you have a bunch of students in a class room who do not speak the language and who come from households where education is not valued, things are going to bog down teaching-wise and discipline-wise. ”
How you go from stating there are illegals in the schools to assuming they don’t speak English, come from households where education isn’t valued, and are undisclipined doesn’t strike me as a factual argument. It strikes me as uninformed.
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Danny said on May 17, 2006 at 2:31 pm
Well, here is a link to one study by the urban institute (looks like a very unbaised study by a think tank started by president Johnson).
http://www.urban.org/publications/311230.html
You can download the pdf file, but the gist of it is that there are at least 1.7 million immigrant children in California pre-K-5th grade and another 1.7 million 6th-12th grade. The study talks about the significant problems that face the educational system from the influx of limited english proficient (lep) children and how this might be addressed through No Child Left Behind (NCLB). It also indicates that an overwelming majority of the immigrants are from Mexico and that a significant fraction of the children are illegal themselves or their parents are here illegally (anchor babies). The estimates are low compared to some other studies I have heard of.
This was a simple google task. I should not have to do this for you. You live in SoCal. You should have been aware of the situation.
As far as valuing education, I can only point out that there are many studies and articles by unbiased sources that document the horribly large dropout rates among latinos in California. It is a travesty for the students, the teachers and the state. I think I even saw a blurb in the Urban Institute study about this issue.
Mary, consider yourself informed.
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Danny said on May 17, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Oh great, now the senate has approved a bill to build a fence. Lovely. What a disgrace these guys are.
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mary said on May 18, 2006 at 10:53 am
Danny
You can’t see that you consistently make the leap from immigrant to illegal immigrant and non-English speaker to illegal immgrant, and uninsured person to illegal immigrant. Something like one in six Americans is without health insurance. Are they all illegal immigrants? I also want to know how you can tell the immgration status of someone who burglarized your house.
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Danny said on May 18, 2006 at 11:11 am
Mary, I am not making leaps. Even this mild-toned, unbaised study indicates that there are hundreds of thousands of children in the school sytem who are illegal immigrants from Mexico or who are children of those who are here illegally from Mexico. It even uses the term ‘undocumented,’ but I refuse to participate in that farcical parlance.
Do you have an ego problem? Because when I am wrong, I will admit it. Ask Ashley and Nancy. But when you are wrong, as you clearly are here, you want to equivocate and argue margins and nuance. There is nothing clearer to people who live in SoCal than there are miilions of people who are here illegally.
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mary said on May 18, 2006 at 2:40 pm
So you are saying I am wrong to claim that not all non-English speakers are here illegally, not all uninsured people are here illegally, and not all Latinos are here illegally?
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Danny said on May 18, 2006 at 3:46 pm
No, all those things you say above are true. It’s just that those statements have very little to do with the reality that:
1) There are millions of illegal aliens in Calfornia. The number probably increases by like a million every year or so.
2) And of these millions, a very, very, very overwhelmingly large percentage are coming in from the southern border, are from Mexico or regions south of there, speak little or no English, have no insurance, are taking jobs that people wrongly say americans will not do, are helping to artificially suppress wages by working for below market value, are living in the bushes or clown-houses thus creating property and health concerns, are being unfairly subsidized by the American taxpayer in many ways (schools, cost of insurance, crowding, hospitals), etc., etc., etc. Plus there are the security concerns.
And all of this should not be. And for you to argue that there is the odd person here and there who does not fit this description does not make it any less true that we are all (including the illegals) paying a very heavy price in quality of life because of the demographic above. And it is because our government is not doing it’s job, the greedy businessman are taking advantage of cheap labor, and the corrupt foriegn governements like Mexico have a convenient safety valve that keeps living just bearable in their own countries so that they are not forced to effect change.
Every nation has a right to enforce immigration policy. Every governement has a duty to do so to protect the way of life of its own citizens. Mexico has troops at its southern border to keep the Guatemalans out. Most other nations do not have an immigration policy even near as leanient as the US’s.
I do not want to change our policies or put troops or a fence at the border. I just want our rather leanient policies to be enforced. I want employers prosecuted who are taking advantage of the immigrants at the expense of American workers. I want the border patrol sufficently funded at both borders. I can’t even believe that 5 years after September 11th this is still a topic of discussion with respect to both our northern and southern borders. Our governement is not governing.
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mary said on May 18, 2006 at 5:49 pm
“No, all those things you say above are true.”
Thank you.
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mary said on May 18, 2006 at 5:53 pm
At least 44 million Americans have no health insurance. Are you saying they are mostly illegal aliens?
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mary said on May 18, 2006 at 5:56 pm
Another google fact, at least 17 Million americans speak no English. All illegal, no doubt, all Spanish speaking.
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mary said on May 18, 2006 at 6:00 pm
Last fact, there are 41.3 million people in the US who claim to be Latino or of Latino origin.
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Danny said on May 18, 2006 at 8:54 pm
Mary, what fact might you tell us all next? Your favorite color? Because that will have about as much bearing on the conversation as anything else you have been saying and you probably won’t have to google it. You should stop. I am embarrassed for you. Everyone else probably is too.
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brian stouder said on May 18, 2006 at 9:43 pm
(I was done with this thread – but I cannot resist this last go-round)
“I am embarrassed for you. Everyone else probably is too.”
BZZZZZT!!!
Wrong again, bucko.
Several times, you have claimed that you’re bringing facts facts facts (and more facts) to this discussion, when all you really have shared is emotion (anger and frustration), speculation, conjecture, and misconceptions about what others here have said (most especially what Mary said – and did NOT say)
Danny – I was genuinely taken aback by your strident tone in this discussion. Aside from illuminating (blindingly!) that facet of the immigration discussion, what have you added?
And for a fellow who leaps at the slightest chance to decry any (imagined) slight against his own racial open-mindedness, your crude racial shots at another poster were flatly unimpressive.
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Danny said on May 19, 2006 at 9:12 am
Several times, you have claimed that you’re bringing facts facts facts (and more facts) to this discussion, when all you really have shared is emotion (anger and frustration), speculation, conjecture, and misconceptions about what others here have said (most especially what Mary said – and did NOT say)
Brian, if you even bothered to click on that study, you would see that it backs up the numbers. But, no. You and Mary have roundly ignored it.
So yeah, I get a little strident when I am doing exactly what you say I am not and Mary and you are inarticulating your opposition with a mish mash of yeah buts and downright fabrications.
So you two are either intellectually dishonest or stupid. Take your pick.
Oh, and Mary’s jibe about how she does not want her kids to grow up like me. I guess that flew under your radar along with the rest of it. How
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brian stouder said on May 19, 2006 at 9:27 am
(actually, I did indeed click the link and read much of the reports there on immigartion numbers and so on. Is there illegal immigration? Yes! Who’d a thunk it)
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