9 responses to “Onward, cultural warriors.”

1. 

   Dick Walker said on May 13, 2004 at 2:29 pm

   Thanks for the link. Noah’s piece is stingingly effective, what with the priceless snapper at the end.

   Actually, if you start with Limbaugh, the right-wing case goes something like, “well, nothing all that bad happened anyway, but if it did, here’s why…”

   Dick

   268 chars

2. 

   Jenny said on May 13, 2004 at 3:53 pm

   A link.

   130 chars

3. 

   alex said on May 13, 2004 at 3:56 pm

   It’s logic so loose that you could apply it to authoritarianism just as effectively. It’s military life that has made these kids into heartless killing machines. Sad thing about it is that it’s true.

   199 chars

4. 

   danno said on May 14, 2004 at 10:03 am

   Why not ‘Blame Canada’ !!! LOVE that song!!!

   44 chars

5. 

   4dbirds said on May 14, 2004 at 11:08 am

   I am a woman and spent 20 years in the US Army. I am also a mother and proud liberal. I disagree that military life makes people heartless killers. We may have to kill in wartime, but it isn’t done with pleasure or without regret. Some of the finest people I’ve had the pleasure to know were in the military. Poor leadership made losers like the military policemen at the Baghdad prison. Where was the Officer or NCO who needed to stand up to the Military Intelligence folks and say “NO, our duty is to jail detainees and to keep them and ourselves safe until their case is adjudicated.”? Where was the officer or NCO who should have told his folks “WTF are you doing? We’re American soldiers and we don’t do this!”? I know for a fact there are moral, decent people in the military. I was one.

   805 chars

6. 

   alex said on May 14, 2004 at 1:10 pm

   Okay, I was being pretty flip there, 4d.

   I might have done better to say that one could make an equally cogent (which is to say ludicrous) argument that Christianity or just about anything else could be held accountable for these atrocities and left it at that.

   Still, while I don’t doubt that there are earnest, good people serving our country�and I’m sure you were one of them�I’ve always had a bit of a problem with the way the military indoctrinates and depersonalizes its own. I was in JROTC�admittedly, not the same thing as being enlisted�but my biggest problem with it was that the culture went entirely against my grain. I was forbidden to think for myself. I was externally motivated�by fear of punishment. I can see how I would have done things that I find morally repugnant had I been under orders. And certainly more vulnerable to mob mentality within this framework.

   Too bad the Chicago Reader doesn’t put in links to its cover stories, but this week’s�by John Conroy�sums it up pretty well. He says torturers and torturing nations always tend to minimize their own actions. Ours included. We should remember Mai Lai. We should remember the civil rights struggle. We should look at our current criminal justice system. In all cases, people have raised the “few bad apples” defense when in fact it’s something much deeper and more widespread.

   1381 chars

7. 

   4dbirds said on May 14, 2004 at 1:30 pm

   Alex sez: “I’ve always had a bit of a problem with the way the military indoctrinates and depersonalizes its own. I was in JROTC�admittedly, not the same thing as being enlisted�but my biggest problem with it was that the culture went entirely against my grain. I was forbidden to think for myself. I was externally motivated�by fear of punishment. I can see how I would have done things that I find morally repugnant had I been under orders. ”

   Wow, if that was the atmosphere of JROTC, then I can see why you take issue with it. I would also. Let me say, that although discipline is important (We’re talking about putting your life on the line), I was constantly trained that only LEGAL orders need be followed. We had classes in the Geneva Convention and military law. As for not thinking for myself. I had a highly technical job that required independant thought. I also had to learn the jobs of not only my peers but also my superiors because, they could be killed and I would need to step in. I also never had a fear of punishment. I was encouraged to take risks as along as the basis for them was sound. This is why, as liberal as I am, I am for a draft. I despise this “Warrior Class” we have now of soldiers pulled from a narrow segment of our society. This leaves a large portion of our Society with no vested interest in the military, since they aren’t our spouses or kids. We also don’t get a wide variety of people with different backgrounds and political views. I think the volunteer army also fosters this belief that since these soldiers ‘volunteered’ they should expect to get what coming to them and not complain or ask questions. Doubt if the draft will ever back, but I don’t think it’s a bad idea.

   1746 chars

8. 

   alex said on May 14, 2004 at 2:23 pm

   I know some people think that if everyone had a vested interest in the military, we probably wouldn’t get dragged into conflicts lacking in urgency, such as the current one. But we had a draft before. And we had Viet Nam. And it took more than a decade and 80,000 American lives before the politicians realized they’d better not continue pursuing it.

   Perhaps I’m as naive as the peaceniks of the ’60s, but I think the current system’s better. And although the human race is doomed to repeat history every so often because of its intractable obtuseness, the sheer ugliness of war in the Information Age may, in the end, keep our government from trying to wield power capriciously again for at least another generation or two.

   I might be in support of compulsory national service but for the fact that there’s so seldom a time for real need.

   846 chars

9. 

   alex said on May 14, 2004 at 4:18 pm

   It’s an eye-opener to see the perspectives of two thoughtful former service members. Just as much as the right has been spinning things disingenuously, it’s beginning to appear to me that the left has been going overboard with claims that problems like these are endemic to the military. And I consider myself a well-informed person who goes out of his way to find the truth.

   Which is why I never accepted the administration’s now-discredited rationale for going to Iraq in the first place. While my feelings toward Kerry are tepid at best, Bush has me hot under the collar and fairly or not I hope these scandals will seal his doom this November.

   651 chars