Well, refilling.

Still not ready to form coherent thoughts yet, so here, have a bunch of links.

I read this Jeb Lund piece Tuesday, marveling at the pungency of its language…

Why rail against the latest Donald Trump atrocity when simply waiting a day or two would see two or three more spatter across the collective consciousness like a goose shitting off a balcony? Donald Trump lies every other breath, with the mechanical dependency of a barfly sucking a Doral to offset the flavor of $2 well drinks.

…and thinking that whatever else this candidacy was good for, it was good for some pretty good writing. I read it early enough in the day that polls were still open. Well. Four more years of this, I guess.

So we got that going for us.

Little else, though. Lately I’m thinking of Ivanka, a woman whose acreage I want to see sown with salt, and all her works cursed. Maybe because I live among her minions.

Finally, I’ve been thinking about the young men who support Trump. I’m not sure where I’m going with that. We’ll see.

Posted at 9:33 pm in Current events |

310 responses to “Well, refilling.”

  1. Sherri said on November 9, 2016 at 9:53 pm

    It’s not the Confederate flag waving redneck that keeps racism alive and well in this country. It’s the suburban mom who just wants to protect her children.

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  2. Sherri said on November 9, 2016 at 10:13 pm

    Whether anybody likes it or not, I’m not going to stop calling out the bigotry: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/after-trump-a-call-for-political-correctness-from-the-right/507155/

    I know conservatives get their feelings hurt when they’re called bigots. consider why it bothers you so much.

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  3. Peggy said on November 9, 2016 at 10:47 pm

    Well said, Sherri. This wouldn’t have happened if only the kkk voted for him it was the suburban moms who put him over.

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  4. susan said on November 10, 2016 at 12:12 am

    Steve Bell on the US election result.

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  5. Jakash said on November 10, 2016 at 1:27 am

    So, 50% of the electorate was composed of racists, KKK enablers and wives appeasing their husbands. None of them voted for Rump because they want Supreme Court nominees who are the opposite of the type that we want, or because they’ve been advised by their bishops or clergy not to support a candidate who supports reproductive rights. Got it. (At least Beinart tones it down to “most.”)

    Like many of you, I imagine (though it’s not been discussed with them) that I have family members who voted for him for reasons other than those proposed in my first sentence. I’m trying to wrap my head around why, and am hesitant to just dismiss them out of hand. Seems the Christian thing to do, to me, not that I’m much of a Christian these days.

    I have to admit that I’m cheered a bit by the folks out protesting in the streets. But I can’t help wondering what we’d all think if they were a bunch of embittered Rump supporters protesting Hillary’s election. Of course, I also wonder how long it will be before I can hear somebody talking on TV about this election and Rump being President without becoming viscerally upset…

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  6. alex said on November 10, 2016 at 2:33 am

    I just awoke from several hours of sound slumber with panic and anxiety. I can’t believe some of the things I let slip from my mouth today while in a state of shock and despair. During dinner at a local establishment, the waitress got pushy about taking my old cocktail glass when she brought my new one. “Can’t I just suck my ice, please?” I fired at her tersely. “Wouldn’t want to miss two dollars’ worth of the skimpy drink you serve in this place.”

    In a gas station, the cashier wanted to see my ID and debit card when I asked for a carton of smokes. “God, what’s that all about?” came out of me. He said he was just protecting me in case someone found my card on the ground or had stolen my wallet. “In other words, you think I look like a thief,” I said. “Thanks.”

    I need my sleep or I’m going to be one surly-ass sourpuss.

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  7. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 2:34 am


    Not dismissing anybody, Jakash. Just not pretending they aren’t what they are. I don’t fucking care whether they voted for Trump to save the unborn babies, the fact is, they made a deal with the devil to do it.

    And yes, I have family that I’m sure voted for Trump. Jakash, you seem to think that only monsters can be bigots. Perhaps growing up in the South teaches you early that some of the sweetest, nicest people you know and love who would never let the n-word ever pass their lips can still be racists.

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  8. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 2:51 am

    Yesterday, white evangelicals again voted for white nationalism. They supported a candidate who explicitly and unambiguously made white nationalism the centerpiece and driving passion of his campaign. The fig-leaf for this support was abortion. And once again we are asked to believe — after centuries defending slavery, segregation and Jim Crow — that it was only about abortion, and that the 100-percent correlation between this anti-abortion politics and white nationalist politics is just an unfortunate and unforeseen coincidence.


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  9. Deborah said on November 10, 2016 at 4:34 am

    A little humor goes a long way http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-donald-trump-wins-uneducated-voters-20161109-story.html

    When I awaken in the middle of the night I have a few seconds of bliss and then I remember who was elected president the other day and the darkness hits.

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  10. adrianne said on November 10, 2016 at 6:06 am

    This election was revenge of the goobers. At least there were demonstrations in New York and across the country, including a big crowd at Trump Towers. The blowback has begun.

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  11. David C. said on November 10, 2016 at 6:09 am

    Any guesses on when the first full blown Trump administration scandal will occur? I’d wager a packet on about a month before the inauguration.

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  12. Suzanne said on November 10, 2016 at 6:46 am

    Scandals, bullying, overt racism, whatever, it won’t matter to Trumpists for a long time. He’s their guy. He’s supported by their beloved talk radio & right wing media people who tell them how to process things. He promises to make America great and we need to be. He’ll protect you from terrorists & negro gangs out in an area where there isn’t a person of another race or religion for 50 miles. I know quite a number of these people. They aren’t stupid (mostly), but the love of Trump really, truly does not go any deeper than that.

    What will be interesting to see is where the right and alt-right media goes now that they have no enemy to troll. The US government is solidly in their hands. My fear is they will go after any easy target.

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  13. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 10, 2016 at 7:12 am

    Wait, where are there $2 well drinks?

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  14. alex said on November 10, 2016 at 7:19 am

    I don’t see a hill of beans’ difference between people who abide bigotry and people who embrace it. Those who won’t stand up for decency and civility don’t deserve my respect and have no right to demand it.

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  15. alex said on November 10, 2016 at 7:23 am

    Those were $7 well drinks, Jeff, the last $2’s worth not visible but faintly tastable.

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  16. Sue said on November 10, 2016 at 7:44 am

    And so it starts. Republican Jewish Coalition tells the ADL they’d better get in line.

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  17. Pam said on November 10, 2016 at 7:56 am

    Even if the folks who voted for Trump get absolutely nothing that they wanted or needed, they will still justify it in their own heads in some way. That’s the only out they have now. Finally and ultimately swallowing down their own dogma, which is preferable to believing they were horribly duped yet again by Republicans.

    And Democrats? I have some ideas but I’m angry with them and don’t want to talk about it right now.

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  18. Suzanne said on November 10, 2016 at 7:59 am

    A friend of mine’s son is living in Germany. They are Jewish. They said it’s such an odd turn of events that they feel their son is safer in Germany than the US right now.

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  19. alex said on November 10, 2016 at 8:09 am

    Get in line for what? The gas chambers?

    Here’s a bit about Admiral Horthy of Hungary, praised by some and reviled by others. My dad says Susan Faludi gets it wrong in her book when she says he was responsible for the extermination of Jews in a particular city. The city happened to be within Czech borders at the time and it would not have been within Horthy’s power to do anything about it. And one wouldn’t expect a book editor in New York to know the intricacies of post-WWI and pre-WWII geography.

    Horthy badmouthed the Jewish people yet also protected them and ended up being sent to a concentration camp himself, and to this day it’s unknown whether his anti-semitism was a strategic cover or his genuine heartfelt sentiment.

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  20. Mark P. said on November 10, 2016 at 9:45 am

    Racism is as racism does. Voting for someone you know is a racist is a racist act. Voting for someone you know is a misogynist is a misogynist act. Voting for someone you know is a despicable person is a despicable act. You can’t light a match in a house soaked with gasoline and then claim you didn’t burn the house down.

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  21. Julie Robinson said on November 10, 2016 at 10:13 am

    If I may have an “Annie” moment, I’ll say that the sun will come out tomorrow, bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow sun will shine. Not only that, for me it will come out in Orlando. This trip couldn’t have been planned better. I need to hug my babies, soak up sun, and have some down time. Hoping to feel much sunnier by the time I’m back.

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  22. Deborah said on November 10, 2016 at 10:24 am

    I predict that things will go bad very fast during the Trump admin, but the people who voted for him will never admit they made a mistake no matter what. It will be crickets from them when the economy tanks or scandals are perpetrated, or corruption, whatever. You won’t hear a peep out of them. Same thing happened when W was president.

    My right wing sister won a $100 bet with her husband that Hillary wouldn’t win. Her husband said the election would be rigged and Hillary would win. She also said that she expects Trump to turn back into a Democrat in about a year. Since she didn’t vote for him she can say that and believe me she will say that. I don’t think anyone has any idea what Trump will do.

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  23. Deborah said on November 10, 2016 at 10:29 am

    Julie, I’m with you on getting away. We’re going back to NM week after next for Thanksgiving and I’m staying until January. We’ll be spending a lot of time at the Abiquiu cabin where cell phone service is spotty, very little Internet. Like Garrison Keillor said in the piece I linked to above, I’m ready to let the Trumpers have their day, meanwhile I’ll be cleaning up the construction flotsam and jetsam around the cabin site. And I’ll be enjoying every minute of it.

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  24. Peter said on November 10, 2016 at 10:55 am

    David C at #11 – Does the Trump U trial count? If it does, I’m taking the under.

    I keep thinking we’re in Bizarro World, or the Fourth Reich. Wait until all of those overly qualified cabinet appointments get their day in the Senate. Oh, the dirt that will be found, and the scandals. Oh, and the new official press will say that it’s all made up by the (((Media))).

    I said it before – I could forgive everything if Our Leader was intelligent, or at least showed a capacity, or willingness, to learn. That ain’t happening. He’s

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  25. Peter said on November 10, 2016 at 10:55 am

    (sorry – hit wrong button, so to conclude)

    He’s going to make W look like quite the statesman and deep thinker.

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  26. Suzanne said on November 10, 2016 at 10:58 am

    I heard an economist (I think that’s what he was) interviewed today on the radio. He believes Trump will not be kind to Wall Street because Wall Street has not been kind to Trump and he never forgets an insult. That will not be good for the market but I suspect a great many Trumpists have little money in the market and won’t care. When market forces ensure that no one has the money to rebuild that factory in their town, it’ll be Wall Street’s fault, not Trump’s. He will have tried after all. I think he’ll be willing to burn down the economic house to spite the bankers who will no longer work with him because of the risks involved. Why not? It’s not his house! His financial house is no doubt overseas somewhere, probably Russia.

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  27. Peter said on November 10, 2016 at 11:16 am

    I heard this morning that Melania will have tea with Michelle while the boys look over the Oval Office.

    I can just imagine the conversation:

    Slovenian Bride: “My Michelle, you should be so proud of your husband. He is an inspiration to so many Americans.”

    FLOTUS: “Melania, you took the words right out of my mouth. AGAIN!”

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  28. brian stouder said on November 10, 2016 at 11:32 am

    Peter for thread win!

    Aside from that, I’ve been thinkin’ – Y’know, after all that talk about the demise of the Republican party, one might be forgiven for thinking that the election of their nominee Donald J Trump to the presidency of the United States may well be the catalyst of that exact outcome.

    Imagine the assembled Republican Congressional Leadership as they roll toward edge of the cliff (Inauguration day) as Trump plays “chicken” with them (assuming the Trump folks WILL work on an ambitious ‘First 100 Days’ agenda).

    Trump’s first 100 days will be yuuuge!!; yuge, I tell you. It will foreshadow much….

    and if the president pushes for something like, ohhh – that border Wall…and the Congressional Republican leadership tells him ‘no’ – then what?

    By way of saying, in addition to the usual ‘off year’ losses that the party of the incumbent president takes, will the House Republicans be willing to risk losing even MORE bigly?

    Disclaimer: I’m rooting for our new president to surprise me, and calmly govern in a reasonable way

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  29. Bitter Scribe said on November 10, 2016 at 11:40 am

    This will be payback time.

    Every ridiculous insult, every slander, every asinine assertion that the right wing has made about Barack Obama is about to get tossed back in their faces.

    Obama was divisive? Incompetent? A tyrant? The worst president in history?

    Fine. Now you’re about to see what a truly divisive, tyrannical and incompetent president looks like.

    You’ve got all three branches of the federal government. No excuses. Bomb throwing and obstruction will no longer suffice as an agenda. Now you have to deliver on all the outrageous promises you’ve been making for eight years.

    You kept saying that Obama was doing everything wrong and we needed you to fix it. OK, you’ve got it. Now try to do what you promised.

    Meanwhile, we will take your place on the sidelines, jeering at every slip-up, every asinine utterance, every manifestation of incompetence from our new president.

    And you know what? Our barbs will sting more, because they will all be true.

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  30. Icarus said on November 10, 2016 at 11:59 am

    I saw two items on my Facebook feed about disappearing Campaign promises on Trump’s website. The one related to abortion and the one related to deporting all Muslims seem to have gone bye bye.

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  31. Scout said on November 10, 2016 at 12:03 pm

    I keep searching for the silver lining in all this. That is in between bouts of gut churning anxiety, fear, and anger followed by catatonic numbness. Still searching.

    Somebody posted a thing on FB (sorry, can’t find it to link now) that the EC could still take it away from him when they gather to vote in Dec. But knowing that the Cretinous Hellbeast Elect and his Hooker Wife are already measuring for drapes at the WH (no doubt in brothel gold) I know it’s just the last desperate grasp at some way out of this nightmare. Hope is pretty elusive at the moment.

    So the protests have already begun. They will be non-stop for the next four years. I have decided to change my monthly giving budget to causes that will help alleviate the suffering of the marginalized. I’m thinking ACLU and Planned Parenthood for starters. Any other ideas from this community are welcome.

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  32. St Bitch said on November 10, 2016 at 12:16 pm

    Fight or flight? Either way, it’s gonna be a bumpy ride.

    My choice was already made when I decided to come take care of Mom. I did manage to cast 2 votes for Hillary, (maybe Mom’s Republican-generated absentee ballot can be counted as one that’s giving Her the popular vote edge), before having to drop out of the lead-up to election day frenzy because Mom fell and broke her hip. After the replacement surgery, I had to rally some extra family support…my sister-in-law flew in from Palm Springs to help me keep 24/7 bedside vigil at the rehab facility, Manor Care, where the beds don’t have guard rails and the staff isn’t equipped to handle dementia patients who can’t remember what the call buttons are for (let alone remember why they are where they are). We brought her home on election day, and I watched Maddow’s blanched demeanor only a few minutes when the returns were starting to come in, before seeking my bed to get my first sleep in a prone position (as opposed to a bedside recliner) in over a week.

    So, yes, I hyper-ventilated at 3:00 am when my cell gave me the news…and called my Jamaican guy in Miami for some Third World perspective and words of comfort. But since I’m all in anyway, I can’t be wallowing in fear and loathing or even finger-pointing. It’s time for resistance fighting…not to undermine this presidency but to contain and alleviate the damage. It’s time to strategize how to navigate troubled waters. It’s time to be pro-active on your own behalf, and on behalf of others if you’re in a position to do so.

    Bravo to Little Bird, Deborah, and the others on this board who are most directly impacted, for taking the true grit road. A shout out to Sherri & company…keep your voices raised. Jean Shaw, I like your attitude. Jakash, you always seem to speak my mind. Alex, hold your corner. You’re already embattled, and you strike me as a stand-up guy.

    Cooze, you’ve been appreciated and missed by many on this board for the pungent passion of your prose. Too bad you’re rejecting the good will of many for their tolerance of a few with whom you take uber umbrage. It’s a shame you’re going to self-immolate. I always took you for a fighter.

    As for you Nancy Nall Derringer, respect due…always. You’re a beacon of clarity in your cherry-sprinkled retro-dress-to-die-for.

    I don’t think Hillary Clinton is going to crawl away and cower in defeat. She still has much to do.

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  33. susan said on November 10, 2016 at 12:26 pm

    Scout @31 – Southern Poverty Law Center. Those are some brave and righteous people. They’re based in Alabama, in the maw of those they expose.

    St. Bitch – another brave and righteous person. Thank you for writing here.

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  34. basset said on November 10, 2016 at 12:27 pm

    Off topic for a minute – something about one of Nancy’s neighbors in the Pointes:

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  35. alex said on November 10, 2016 at 12:28 pm

    Thanks, St. B!

    Here’s Garrison Keillor in the WaPo today. I’m pasting it lest any of you have run out of your monthly allotment of articles. It’s one of the cheerier things I’ve seen today and I suppose it’s the attitude I’d like to adopt once I get past the anger, grief and disbelief.

    So he won. The nation takes a deep breath. Raw ego and proud illiteracy have won out, and a severely learning-disabled man with a real character problem will be president. We are so exhausted from thinking about this election, millions of people will take up leaf-raking and garage cleaning with intense pleasure. We liberal elitists are wrecks. The Trumpers had a whale of a good time, waving their signs, jeering at the media, beating up protesters, chanting “Lock her up” — we elitists just stood and clapped. Nobody chanted “Stronger Together.” It just doesn’t chant.

    The Trumpers never expected their guy to actually win the thing, and that’s their problem now. They wanted only to whoop and yell, boo at the H-word, wear profane T-shirts, maybe grab a crotch or two, jump in the RV with a couple of six-packs and go out and shoot some spotted owls. It was pleasure enough for them just to know that they were driving us wild with dismay — by “us,” I mean librarians, children’s authors, yoga practitioners, Unitarians, bird-watchers, people who make their own pasta, opera-goers, the grammar police, people who keep books on their shelves, that bunch. The Trumpers exulted in knowing we were tearing our hair out. They had our number, like a bratty kid who knows exactly how to make you grit your teeth and froth at the mouth.

    Alas for the Trump voters, the disasters he will bring on this country will fall more heavily on them than anyone else. The uneducated white males who elected him are the vulnerable ones, and they will not like what happens next.

    To all the patronizing B.S. we’ve read about Trump expressing the white working-class’s displacement and loss of the American Dream, I say, “Feh!” — go put your head under cold water. Resentment is no excuse for bald-faced stupidity. America is still the land where the waitress’s kids can grow up to become physicists and novelists and pediatricians, but it helps a lot if the waitress and her husband encourage good habits and the ambition to use your God-given talents and the kids aren’t plugged into electronics day and night. Whooping it up for the candidate of cruelty and ignorance does less than nothing for your kids.

    We liberal elitists are now completely in the clear. The government is in Republican hands. Let them deal with him. Democrats can spend four years raising heirloom tomatoes, meditating, reading Jane Austen, traveling around the country, tasting artisan beers, and let the Republicans build the wall and carry on the trade war with China and deport the undocumented and deal with opioids, and we Democrats can go for a long , brisk walk and smell the roses.

    I like Republicans. I used to spend Sunday afternoons with a bunch of them, drinking Scotch and soda and trying to care about NFL football. It was fun. I tried to think like them. (Life is what you make it. People are people. When the going gets tough, tough noogies.) But I came back to liberal elitism.

    Don’t be cruel. Elvis said it, and it’s true. We all experienced cruelty back in our playground days — boys who beat up on the timid, girls who made fun of the homely and naive — and most of us, to our shame, went along with it, afraid to defend the victims lest we become one of them. But by your 20s, you should be done with cruelty. Mr. Trump was the cruelest candidate since George Wallace. How he won on fear and bile is for political pathologists to study. The country is already tired of his noise, even his own voters. He is likely to become the most intensely disliked president since Herbert Hoover. His children will carry the burden of his name. He will never be happy in his own skin. But the damage he will do to our country — who knows? His supporters voted for change, and boy, are they going to get it.

    Back to real life. I went up to my home town the other day and ran into my gym teacher, Stan Nelson, looking good at 96. He commanded a landing craft at Normandy on June 6, 1944, and never said a word about it back then, just made us do chin-ups whether we wanted to or not. I saw my biology teacher Lyle Bradley, a Marine pilot in the Korean War, still going bird-watching in his 90s. I was not a good student then, but I am studying both of them now. They have seen it all and are still optimistic. The past year of politics has taught us absolutely nothing. Zilch. Zero. Nada. The future is scary. Let the uneducated have their day. I am now going to pay more attention to teachers.

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  36. James said on November 10, 2016 at 12:29 pm

    I’m still processing this thing.
    Here’s my cartoon therapy towards that end.

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  37. Joe K said on November 10, 2016 at 12:31 pm

    Bitter Scribe @ 29,
    You left out the ending where you now have become the very person you have hated for the past 4 yrs.
    Pilot Joe

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  38. alex said on November 10, 2016 at 12:35 pm

    He can’t become the person he hated, Joe. That person has no brains and no soul, and still doesn’t.

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  39. Jean Shaw said on November 10, 2016 at 12:48 pm

    Suzanne @26, if you want to hear an interesting economic perspective, google Mark Blyth and pull up some of his recent youtube videos. Let’s just say he was not at all surprised by the outcome of the election.

    Re: potential worthy causes, I’m going to take some time and go to ground to really think about where/how I can contribute. There is much work to be done, and I want to concentrate my efforts. No flailing about–we don’t have that kind of luxury.

    Similarly, we don’t have the luxury of living in our own echo chambers. Sometimes, you have to emerge and really listen to the enemy. You can’t fight shadows. (And oh crap, but I just channeled my father, who hated Nixon with a passion. I tell you, the ghosts of the ancestors have had a lot to say to me the last couple of days.)

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  40. Jolene said on November 10, 2016 at 12:53 pm

    Scout @31: Consider the Natural Resources Defense Council. Legal strategies to address environmental issues will be critical as Trump seeks to undo environmental regulations and unleash extractive industries.

    Here’s an idea of what’s in store.

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  41. Bitter Scribe said on November 10, 2016 at 12:58 pm

    Joe K @37,

    You skipped over the “they will all be true” part. Not surprising.

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  42. Connie said on November 10, 2016 at 1:16 pm

    I live sort of near Edsel and Eleanor Ford’s summer home. House burned down, big volunteer org is trying to improve the property. https://havenhillproject.wordpress.com/

    Joe, you only say mean stuff to us. Why can’t you stop? If you dislike us all that much just go away.

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  43. Scout said on November 10, 2016 at 1:18 pm

    Joe can’t quit us. It’s a cry for help.

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  44. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 1:32 pm

    There will be important elections in 2018. I’m not talking about Congress, but state legislatures. The gutting of the VRA makes it even more critical to work to undo the gerrymander project of the Republicans, and we can’t count on the Supreme Court. Plus, Republican plans tend to block grant support for the vulnerable back to the states, and Republican legislatures can be pretty stingy with that money.

    City councils, school boards, those other offices people don’t pay attention to; the Tea Party showed how an extremist minority gains power. Despite the outcome of the election, we are not a minority. The quirks of our Constitution cast us into that position in government, but more people voted for Hillary than voted for Trump, and routinely there are more Dem votes for Congress than Republican ones.

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  45. Jolene said on November 10, 2016 at 1:57 pm

    I’ve had the opportunity to see up close–through my own experience and that of friends–the role of the federal government in funding and executing research in various areas. Mostly, these functions are carried out by professionals with little political intervention except, obviously, from the very important standpoint of the budget. From time to time, however, these functions have come under attack from legislators who know little about basic science or are suspicious of, for instance, research in the social sciences.

    Trump, I am fairly confident, has no idea that these functions even exist beyond the most general level, and that may be just as well. But there will be partisans seeking to undermine or influence these activities. Either way, it’s worrying. Here is a video in which Marc Fisher of the Washington Post who, along with Michael Kranish, wrote Trump Revealed talks about how Trump learns. Not encouraging.

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  46. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 2:11 pm

    Let me make it clear. I don’t hate Trump supporters. Despite what they think, I do think even care what they believe. I don’t care that they think African-Americans are more violent, or that gays marrying are an abomination, or that trans people are sick. I’m not interested in being the thought police, though that’s what they would accuse me of. I do care about actions. When they put those beliefs into action with words and deed, those have consequences, and those consequences hurt other people. In the old construction, your right to punch me ends at my nose. Trump supporters act like they want everybody else to get their noses out of the way so that they’re free to punch as much as they like without recriminations. They don’t want to have to worry about people who they don’t understand and who don’t understand them.

    Everybody feels bad the first few times you inadvertently hurt someone out of a misunderstanding. You feel embarrassed and ashamed. But you have a choice. You can either take responsibility and learn, or you can blame the other person. They should learn English! They shouldn’t be here anyway! Women don’t belong in this job! You can’t trust blacks, anyway!

    I’m told I should stop shaming Trump supporters. I’m not trying to shame them. I’m regarding them as grownups responsible for their own actions and capable of understanding that their actions affect other people. To do otherwise infantilizes them. I’ll never understand why it’s okay to consider them so stupid as to act against their own best interests, but not okay to assume that they consider,their best interests to be what I consider bigotry.

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  47. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 2:13 pm

    Langston Hughes.


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  48. Andrea said on November 10, 2016 at 2:30 pm

    regarding the so-called “pro-life vote”, here’s what I posted on my FB page yesterday:

    To all of the so-called “pro-life” voters out there who held their noses and put a KKK-endorsed pussy grabber in the White House because of the Supreme Court, I am waiting for you to show me — individually and as a movement — how you give two shits about that life once he or she is born.

    Show me that you adopted a drug exposed infant. Volunteered as a foster parent or at a homeless shelter. Funded equitable public schools. Provided affordable health care. Supported low income housing in your neighborhood. Rallied against police shootings of unarmed people of color. Supported justice reform. Ended the death penalty. Welcomed a refugee. Anything. Walk the walk. You will have plenty of opportunity in the next 4 years.

    Otherwise you are not really “pro-life.” You are “pro forced pregnancy” and that is pretty twisted.

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  49. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 3:13 pm

    There is a lot of navel-gazing about media failure in this election, as there should be. But one facet of that failure that is likely to be overlooked is the missing voice. We saw so many stories of the Trump voter that it became parody, but how many stories were there of undocumented immigrants? Muslims? People who would lose health care if the ACA were repealed? Actual poor people, who were dependent on food stamps? Black lives matter activitists?

    In many of those cases, the journalists from New York and DC wouldn’t even have had to hop in a car and drive to the Ohio Valley, they could have just walked out the back door.

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  50. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 3:25 pm

    I identified myself as Muslim to 30-year-old Vjekoslav Grgas, decked out head to toe and from consonant to consonant in Make America Great Again gear, and tried explaining to him what a President Trump could mean to American Muslims. “You need three things to have a country,” Grgas explained. “Borders, language, and culture. Why is it so wrong that Americans want a border, a culture, a language?” He went on to assure me that Trump couldn’t possibly hold bigoted views because of his success in international business. I shook his hand and begged him not to forget me. What else can you do as a Muslim desperately trying to convince someone you aren’t out for global domination.


    My very Republican friend, with whom I discussed the election when it became clear Trump would win the nomination, expressed something similar about Trump’s racism: he’s a real estate developer, how could he be racist? My friend also said racism just didn’t bother him that much.

    And oh, the irony of someone named Grgas policing what American culture is and isn’t.

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  51. brian stouder said on November 10, 2016 at 3:30 pm

    Sherri, that is a stupendously good point, and it would give a human face to the people whose interests – and votes – were flatly marginalized, as someone’s linked article above (about the Electoral College) highlighted.

    I gave Uncle Rush only about 3 minutes at lunchtime today, before changing the channel.

    He was busy attacking “the drive-by meeedia” for already giving The Donald a hard time, when he hasn’t even been sworn in yet…!!!

    and THIS from the guy who INSTANTLY declared that he was hoping for President-elect Obama’s failure, the day after Obama defeated John McCain for the office.

    Well, ‘course, THAT was different!!! (and of course, when Oxy Rush gets riffin’ on the “Meeedia”, he never means – you know – himself!!)

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  52. brian stouder said on November 10, 2016 at 3:34 pm

    he’s a real estate developer, how could he be racist?

    Still laughing!!

    That’s like saying “he’s a used car salesman; how could he be dishonest?”

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  53. nancy said on November 10, 2016 at 4:01 pm

    This is key, Sherri: My friend also said racism just didn’t bother him that much.

    I’m continually amazed at how many people will make casually racist comments to me, assuming that because I’m white, too, it won’t bother me.

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  54. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 4:10 pm

    Yes, it is Nancy. And it’s true. I’ve known him almost 40 years, and he’s been exactly who he is since I met him at 16.

    He doesn’t recognize that as racism. Believe me, I’ve called him on it. He’s more than a lip service Christian, too; he’s read deeply in theology. He’s smart, well-educated, well off, and superficially charming, but very little empathy for others, including white trash.

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  55. Heather said on November 10, 2016 at 4:13 pm

    White people have the luxury of not letting racism bother them that much. Victims of racism, not so much.

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  56. john (not mccain) said on November 10, 2016 at 4:13 pm

    “I’m continually amazed at how many people will make casually racist comments to me, assuming that because I’m white, too, it won’t bother me.”

    Now try and imagine what I, a fat white guy from Alabama, have been hearing my whole life. It’s amazing that conservatives think they can reveal themselves so readily for the racists they are, and then be shocked that people think they are, in fact, racists. It’s why JoeK always makes me laugh.

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  57. Heather said on November 10, 2016 at 4:13 pm

    Also, Sherri, from your brief description he sounds like a classic narcissist or sociopath. Superficially charming and no empathy–check and check.

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  58. Suzanne said on November 10, 2016 at 4:25 pm

    He’s more than a lip service Christian, too; he’s read deeply in theology.” Fort Wayne has a Lutheran Seminary and over the years, for various reasons & in different environments, I’ve encountered quite a number of Seminary students. They, too, are deeply rooted in theology, but I am seeing more and more guys with no people skills whatsoever. None. I find that odd because being a church leader involves, well, people, right? I mean you can preach all you want, but if nobody shows up to hear, is there a point? Apparently, service to people is not in the mix anymore. Maybe they just don’t get normal guys to apply? Idk

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  59. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 4:37 pm

    Heather, you should have met his mother!

    He maintains the friendship, not I, which is why I’ve been willing over the years to tell him what I’ve thought without worry of losing the friendship. He says some pretty outrageous things, and then you realize he is serious, like his solution to the drug problem being to poison the drug supply.

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  60. Sue said on November 10, 2016 at 4:55 pm

    ‘his solution to the drug problem being to poison the drug supply’
    And who gets to bell that cat?

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  61. susan said on November 10, 2016 at 4:57 pm

    Whew, Sherri. Not sure I would call that a “friendship.” Ugh.

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  62. Heather said on November 10, 2016 at 4:58 pm

    Sociopath, then.

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  63. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 5:00 pm

    With apologies to Jeff(tmmo), with whom I’ve had a disagreement about the makeup of evangelicals: http://religionnews.com/2016/11/10/evangelical-left-admits-it-doesnt-exist-wallis-campolo-sider-mclaren/

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  64. Deborah said on November 10, 2016 at 5:02 pm

    Suzanne, that Lutheran Seminary in Ft. Wayne was for many years considered where Sem students went who were more suited to the practical side of things. It used to be in Springfield, IL by the way. The Seminary in St. Louis, by contrast used to be considered the more intellectual place, for serious study of scripture and Doctrine. My ex’s father was a graduate of the Springfield seminary, he was a D student and a lousy preacher.

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  65. Deborah said on November 10, 2016 at 5:04 pm

    Shit, I did it again. I mistyped my email address and I’m in moderation. The reason I keep having to retype my info is because I set my browser on private so it doesn’t save anything.

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  66. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 5:06 pm

    Another reason I’m harping on the bigotry is that I fear there will be a tendency to whitewash it, so to speak, and be willing to throw support for women, immigrants, African-Americans overboard in yet another attempt to attract working class whites to the Dem coalition. I’m all for attracting working class whites, but I don’t want to Sister Souljah everybody else to do it.

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  67. Jeff Borden said on November 10, 2016 at 5:12 pm

    I noted the other day on my Facebook page the difficulty I felt walking into my classroom at Oakton Community College on the day after the election. This class is far more diverse in every way than my classes at Loyola, which is an expensive liberal arts university drawing heavily from Catholic high schools. I have black, Hispanic, Asian and biracial students. They represent a wide array of religions including Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Jewish. I wondered what I was going to say to them since so many will be adversely affected by the policies of our president-elect.

    A former high school classmate –a blond white woman who still lives in the same small town where we attended school– immediately replied: “Tell them the truth ! America is a democracy & voting is our privilege. Men & women have died for that right . Last night Americans voted to change the direction our country was headed. It’s that simple .”

    Where to begin? White privilege? Her certainty that whatever happens in the next few years will not touch her? Naivete? Does someone who lives in a small but wealthy town even know a Muslim or a Hispanic immigrant? Arrogance? Is this a Trump supporter revealing her unspoken racism and unbridled joy that that first black president is on his way out?

    I’m finding solace in that group of young people. They are not the stereotypes portrayed by our president-elect and his followers. They’re good-hearted people. Better people than the blonde woman who upbraided me. I know who I’d rather live next door to.

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  68. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 5:13 pm

    Friendship probably isn’t the right term, but I’ve tolerated the connection because it’s mostly via email since he lives in Kentucky and because there have been a few creepy interactions over the years. I’ve never felt in danger or anything, but the guy does have a mean streak, and I’d rather not activate that and keep the connection in a state where I have some idea of what’s going on with him.

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  69. Jolene said on November 10, 2016 at 5:45 pm

    Trump supporters act like they want everybody else to get their noses out of the way so that they’re free to punch as much as they like without recriminations.

    Exactly. When they complain about political correctness, what is it they want the freedom to say? Do they want to call black people niggers, Latinos beaners, and Muslims ragheads without repercussions? When they say they want to take their country back, aren’t they saying “We don’t want a black president.”? And are we supposed to think that’s OK?

    Best thing that’s happened since the election: When DJT and Melania visited the White House today, there was no photo op of Melania and Michelle. The analogous shot of Michelle and Laura Bush was widely featured. I say, good. There are some indignities a person should not be expected to endure.

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  70. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 6:27 pm

    Just got off the phone with a friend of mine, a woman on city council. She’s considering a run for legislature in 2018, or identifying a better female candidate if not, to replace the current Republican state senator. I was her treasurer for her city council campaign.

    She has daughters, the youngest 15, the oldest almost 22. This outcome is hard on those of us with daughters entering the world. They aren’t entering the world we had hoped.

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  71. Joe Kobiela said on November 10, 2016 at 6:30 pm

    I’ll ask this and please let me know if I’m sounding mean.
    But did anyone Listen to what President Obama said today after meeting President elect Trump? If you didn’t I hope you take the time to. I ought it showed a lot of class.
    Thank you
    Pilot Joe

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  72. Jolene said on November 10, 2016 at 6:35 pm

    Yes, Joe. He is being classy to a man who entered the political fray by questioning Obama’s legitimacy–repeatedly and in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Trump’s birtherism was and always will be a disgrace. That Obama treated him with vastly more respect than he deserves is proof than Obama is and always will be the better man.

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  73. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 6:39 pm

    There’s a reason so many of us love him, Joe.

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  74. Jolene said on November 10, 2016 at 6:39 pm

    And let me add, no other president has had his right to be president, despite winning a substantial electoral majority, questioned in this way, over and over, by millions of people with the loud voice of Donald Trump leading, if not initiating, the charge. I just can’t think what was distinctive about President Obama that led people to raise this question. Any ideas?

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  75. Suzanne said on November 10, 2016 at 6:45 pm

    Hmmm, Jolene. Could it have anything to do with race? I wooonder…

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  76. David C. said on November 10, 2016 at 6:48 pm

    Joe, John McCain said this after he lost.

    I urge all Americans who supported me to join me in not just congratulating him, but offering our next president our goodwill and earnest effort to find ways to come together, to find the necessary compromises, to bridge our differences and help restore our prosperity, defend our security in a dangerous world, and leave our children and grandchildren a stronger, better country than we inherited.

    Whatever our differences, we are fellow Americans. And please believe me when I say no association has ever meant more to me than that.

    It is natural tonight to feel some disappointment, but tomorrow we must move beyond it and work together to get our country moving again. We fought — we fought as hard as we could.

    Mitt Romney said this after his loss

    The nation, as you know, is at a critical point. At a time like this, we can’t risk partisan bickering and political posturing. Our leaders have to reach across the aisle to do the people’s work.

    And we citizens also have to rise to the occasion. We look to our teachers and professors, we count on you not just to teach, but to inspire our children with a passion for learning and discovery.

    Two month after McCain called for reconciliation and bipartisanship, on the day of President Obama’s inauguration these people:

    Frank Luntz – GOP Pollster
    Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI)
    Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA)
    Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA),
    Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX),
    Rep. Jeb Hensarling (R-TX),
    Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-MI)
    Rep. Dan Lungren (R-CA),
    Sen. Jim DeMint (SC-R),
    Sen. Jon Kyl (AZ-R),
    Sen. Tom Coburn (OK-R),
    Sen. John Ensign (NV-R) and
    Sen. Bob Corker (TN-R).
    Non-lawmakers present Newt Gingrich

    Did this:
    The senior GOP members plotted to bring Congress to a standstill regardless how much it would hurt the American Economy by pledging to obstruct and block President Obama on all legislation.
    These Republican members of Congress were not simply airing their complaints regarding the other party’s political platform for four long hours. No, these Republican Congressional Policymakers, who were elected to do ‘the People’s work’ were literally plotting to sabotage, undermine and destroy the U.S. Economy.

    So fuck you, and fuck your fucking party.

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  77. susan said on November 10, 2016 at 7:01 pm

    Thank you, David C. That was a perfect riposte. I would like to echo your last sentence, to the thousandth barely audible reverberation.

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  78. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 7:03 pm

    A view from someone who has lived under autocratic states: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival/

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  79. Joe K said on November 10, 2016 at 7:12 pm

    David your mean, I may have to go to my safe place and cry.
    Pilot Joe

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  80. Jolene said on November 10, 2016 at 7:24 pm

    They had the Michelle/Melania photo op after all.

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  81. Jean Shaw said on November 10, 2016 at 7:24 pm

    Sherri, thanks for posting that.

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  82. Connie said on November 10, 2016 at 7:39 pm

    DavidC, I dont know if you knew commenter Ashley back in the day, but his call of anger was “fuck you you fucking fuck.” Or for short FYYFF

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  83. Deborah said on November 10, 2016 at 8:00 pm

    Joe, These two words sounds alike, Your is a possessive adjective and modifies nouns. Such as in “your house” or “your car”. You’re is a contraction of the two words you are.

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  84. David C. said on November 10, 2016 at 8:15 pm

    I don’t have to be polite to anyone who votes to take the health insurance away from my sister. Take your sanctimonious crying bullshit, fold it five ways, and shove it where the fucking sun doesn’t shine. You want crying. I spent last night on the phone with my mom and my sister. My sister was crying real fucking tears, not your bullshit fake crocodile tears. She’s diabetic and works for herself. She was able to get health insurance the first time in a long time thanks to the ACA and has her disease under control better than she has in years. She’s scared to death she’s now going to lose her insurance. I know assholes like you think disease is a moral failing and not just a bad draw at life’s lottery. So maybe she deserves to die if she can’t afford the medicines she needs? I’m goddamned fucking tired of all your drive by sanctimony. Why don’t you just piss off to Redstate or InfoWars or somewhere else where they will appreciate your incredible piety and unique grammar. Thanks for the reminder Connie. FYYFF. Sorry to use your place like this, Nancy. I just couldn’t be quiet any more.

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  85. Charlotte said on November 10, 2016 at 8:16 pm

    Masha Gessen in the NYRB — Rule #1 Believe the Autocrat: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival/

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  86. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 8:18 pm

    The ultimate expression of the politics that gave us the 2016 election came not from Breitbart or Stormfront but from John Roberts, the courteous and thoughtful chief justice of the Supreme Court. It was Roberts who wrote the 5-4 opinion in 2013 that stripped crucial provisions from the Voting Rights Act, on the grounds that the country had already had enough of them. Times had changed, Roberts wrote, and jurisdictions that had been guilty of past discrimination no longer deserved to have federal supervision encroaching on their state sovereignty.


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  87. Jolene said on November 10, 2016 at 8:24 pm

    Finally, Hillary gets a chance to relax.

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  88. Jolene said on November 10, 2016 at 8:32 pm

    It is, by the way, political malpractice that we never saw a picture like the one of Hillary with her pooch during the campaign. Also, grandchildren. Where were they? As the TV talkers say, she needed humanizing.

    And yes, I realize this is a shallow observation, but Trump won by putting his political platform on a hat.

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  89. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 8:39 pm

    But the fact remains that in voting for Trump, they voted for racism: It was right there in the package deal, front and center, and hard to miss. They voted for it anyway. And you may argue that voting for racism as part of a larger package deal does not a racist make, and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, as far as what people do to others in their personal and day to day lives. But voting for racism will make personal, day-to-day life harder for the targets of that racism. Two days after the election, we’re already seeing that.

    What Scalzi said.


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  90. Joe K said on November 10, 2016 at 8:48 pm

    Sorry but I’m uneducated remember?
    Funny never heard they were eliminating health care. Heard they were going to change it, I’m willing to bet it will be different, but a dollar says no one will be denied.
    Pilot Joe

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  91. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 8:53 pm

    Hope your life isn’t dependent on that bet, Joe. There are other people whose lives are.

    We had the fewest uninsured people ever in the history of the US thanks to Obama are, and the Republicans couldn’t stand it. The Republicans don’t want people to have insurance supported by government and never have.

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  92. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 8:57 pm

    Fuck, 2016 sucks. Leonard Cohen has died: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/leonard-cohen-dead-at-82-w449792

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  93. Jean Shaw said on November 10, 2016 at 8:59 pm

    David C …. ugh. I’m sorry.

    An old friend/coworker of mine turns 62 tomorrow. He has a congenital heart defect and just recently retired–and of course is now worried that he will lose coverage.

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  94. Danny said on November 10, 2016 at 9:08 pm

    Fuck you, you fucking fuckmook!

    THAT is what Ashely used to say.

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  95. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 9:16 pm

    On Dems and the WWC: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/11/republicans-and-white-working-class

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  96. Sue said on November 10, 2016 at 9:17 pm

    Well of course they won’t be denied. They just won’t be able to afford what’s offered under the Republican replacement, assuming there is one. That’s something you can count on. You can’t have all the goodies without the mechanism to pay for them, so the repeal and replace will be offered in a way that’s not accessible to the people who actually need it.
    And let’s not forget that the major players (AMA, AHA, etc.) stood at the sidelines waiting to see which way the wind was blowing, and did precisely zero to expedite ACA.
    I’m so sorry, David C. A friend died of cancer, alone, at home, unable to get the care he needed or even hospice. Fell between the cracks. That’s going to be so much fun to go back to, especially now that we can blame it on the people who die because they ‘didn’t take advantage’ of the much-anticipated modified Republican ACA.

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  97. brian stouder said on November 10, 2016 at 9:25 pm

    I just got back from a very engaging lecture at our local university, presented by Charlie Savage, a Pulitzer Prize winning New York Times reporter – who I did not realize was also a North Side High School graduate (Yay for FWCS!!)

    It was very good stuff, regarding our new president and the international challenges that he faces

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  98. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 10, 2016 at 9:48 pm

    Sherri, I think this is a little more useful: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/the-evangelical-reckoning-on-trump/507161/

    Grim, but useful.

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  99. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 10:02 pm

    Racism has always been a problem among white evangelicals. Trump just forced it into the open. Harder to put a nice face on it and pretend it’s not real.

    Sexism, too, of course.

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  100. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 11:02 pm

    I have friends and acquaintances who are Trump supporters. They genuinely do not understand today’s shock, particularly from minorities. These Trump supporters do not understand that many minorities believe the people who voted for Trump endorse his racism and bigotry — that those voters care more about sending a message to the political establishment than they do about the rights and welfare of human beings.


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  101. LAMary said on November 10, 2016 at 11:05 pm

    Can’t wait to see what existential kick in the ass happens tomorrow. I got laid off on Monday. Trump got elected on Tuesday, now Leonard Cohen died. Sort of all over the map in terms of levels of shittiness.

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  102. Sherri said on November 10, 2016 at 11:10 pm

    I’m so sorry, LAMary.

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  103. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 10, 2016 at 11:10 pm

    LAMary, so very sorry. That’s a . . . Hell of a week. If I may so commiserate. I hope & pray you have prospects arising soon.

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  104. Dexter said on November 10, 2016 at 11:43 pm

    So sorry LAM. And yeah…I’ll be in mourning for three days here. http://www.freep.com/story/life/2016/11/10/leonard-cohen-dies-at-82/93622408/

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  105. Jolene said on November 10, 2016 at 11:58 pm

    Very sorry to hear about your job, LAMary. I hope your long experience will help you find a new job soon. Will you look for something similar or try to move in a new direction? First, of course, drink some wine.

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  106. susan said on November 11, 2016 at 12:13 am

    Wow, LAMary, what a punch.

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  107. Jean Shaw said on November 11, 2016 at 12:36 am

    Oh no LA Mary.

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  108. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 3:14 am

    Vote for the hate, stay for the crony capitalism!



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  109. ROGirl said on November 11, 2016 at 5:05 am

    LA Mary, sorry about your work situation. Stay strong, don’t let the bastards get you down.

    I still can’t accept the reality of the election. I can’t bring myself to read the news about president elect Trump preparing to take office. I was embarrassed for President Obama being so gracious and human with the despicable scumbag who won the election. It’s an embarrassment for the country. It can’t actually be happening, but it is. It’s a cosmic joke, it’s the worst joke in the world. There’s a woman in my office who supports Trump. When I bring up his bigotry, sexism, ego and lies her rote response is that Hillary is worse, that Obama caused Trump.

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  110. Suzanne said on November 11, 2016 at 6:39 am

    LAMary, sorry to hear about the job loss. Especially now. It’s like some evil has floated down on the world. I heard about Cohen last night and thought, “Lucky him”.

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  111. Linda said on November 11, 2016 at 6:47 am

    LA. Mary, I’m sorry about your job. What a crappy week for it to happen. Hope your experience and smarts get you another job soon.

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  112. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 7:05 am

    When I read your comment about your week LAMary I gasped out loud and woke my husband. I’m so, so sorry.

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  113. Suzanne said on November 11, 2016 at 7:06 am

    Sherri, that Roll Call link says it all. It is exactly what I’ve been telling people all this election cycle. It is what makes me the saddest of all, really, that so many nice, caring, generous, loving people that I know could still vote for this maniac and put us all at risk. Because they are not stupid but ignorant about how the world is because they live in a self-imposed bubble. One dear friend was upset when her son moved to Austin TX, not so much because it is far, far away from Indiana but because it’s so liberal.

    I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t know at all.

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  114. alex said on November 11, 2016 at 7:15 am

    So sorry, LA Mary. I can’t imagine having to go through that during a week like this one. I’ll be thinking of you and sending you whatever good energy I can muster.

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  115. Connie said on November 11, 2016 at 7:21 am

    Very sorry LAMary.

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  116. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 7:24 am

    Joe, you may not have had the opportunity of a good education, but you can educate yourself by reading. My mother had to quit school after the 9th grade because her family was too poor for her to board in town so she could continue through high school during the depression. But she was a voracious reader and you would never have guessed that she hadn’t finished high school.

    Sherri, I love your comments and links, please keep it up.

    If I hadn’t already quit going to church, the behavior of evangelicals during this election would surely have been the end for me. I wonder how many people they pushed over the edge?

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  117. Heather said on November 11, 2016 at 7:45 am

    I’m sorry, LA Mary. Please let us know if you need help. I don’t know what you do but it’s always helpful to have a network.

    A friend tweeted that someone in her circle killed herself yesterday because she was chronically ill and knew she was going to lose her health coverage. To be sick and in pain and to know what is coming is going to be unbearable for a lot of people. And don’t tell me they’ll replace it. They don’t have to, so they won’t.

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  118. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 7:55 am

    Oh Heather, that is really depressing. It will take a while for them to dismantle Obamacare, that’s what I keep telling Little Bird, I’ve advised her to get as many tests and treatments now that she still can. I agree with Sue, while the Republicans may make it unlawful for insurance companies to refuse coverage for pre-existing conditions it will probably be prohibitively expensive to get it, because… “free market” is more important than human lives. I’m not bitter, not at all.

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  119. Diane said on November 11, 2016 at 8:47 am

    LAMary, I am very sorry. That really is a crappy week.

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  120. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 11, 2016 at 8:48 am

    I’ve been repeating for 48 hours now to Republican friends (many of whom voted Trump, but so far from all I’m still surprised, but enough of that) that this is merely a reprieve of sorts, a challenge for certain.

    The GOP now controls the House, Senate, the Executive branch, and likely soon a Supreme Court majority. Everyone knows it. And as of yesterday, an 18 month clock started ticking. Inexorably.

    Paul Ryan and whatever currently stands for conservative thought and Republican politics has a steadily dwindling window to show that, for the first time in 8-16 years, they have a plan and implementation for a) a response to the health care coverage question, b) a vision for national unity, and c) a policy program for trade and international involvement both military and economic. They have to show precisely, finally, what those steps are, and start applying them and living with the results.

    I do not believe (and remember, I believed Hillary would win, so trust me not) that Trump has a real mandate. He’s been given a chance. He said he was against foreign adventurism, which was one of his most consistent actual “policy” points, and he’s made a number of [koff] statements about trade and protection and exports.

    If 18 months from now, whatever Trump and Congress do, there is still a rapid increase in price/cost in health insurance, if the number of uninsured and untreated ill increase, if we’re in a new armed conflict in Blankistan, and our balance of trade continues to lag as real income stagnates or drops at all, I can see the electorate giving them no further slack. They don’t have four years, or three until Trump runs for his second term in 36 months. They’ve got 18 months to show they are actually putting concrete actions on the table, with demonstrable results.

    Tick tock, Paul. Tick tock.

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  121. Suzanne said on November 11, 2016 at 8:54 am

    You are more optimistic than me, Jeff.
    Best case scenario is that Trump gets all kinds of tax laws changed to benefit his pocket and when things heat up – as you outlined above, Jeff. Higher healthcare costs, still waiting for those factories to reopen – he’ll high tail it outta Dodge and retire from public life with his billions and a smirk on his face. Gotcha!
    Worst case scenario, when things heat up, we have a Night of the Long Knives and he purges his loser team and, well, you know how that ends.

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  122. Danny said on November 11, 2016 at 9:09 am

    No doubt, Jeff.

    And you know, through the years of reading comments here at NNC, I do see the wisdom in several policy areas that have brought me around, swayed me.

    I don’t know what will be done about health care, but it seems that a single-payer national system is the only answer. This current half-way measure was doomed. Health care should be a basic human right in the richest nation in earth.

    And similarly, Brian and Nancy have very effectively laid out the case for public education over the years. I used to think school vouchers and Charter schools had merit. No longer.

    My hope is that Trump is not an unmitigated disaster, that he does break the gridlock and work with both sides of the aisle. But being a political outsider, he is undoubtedly going to need help and I know that he will fail if he just surrounds himself with GOP insiders.

    What a mess this could be. We will see.

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  123. Julie Robinson said on November 11, 2016 at 9:15 am

    LAMARY, that’s horrible. I don’t know what the job market is like in your area but I pray that there’s another position around the corner. Don’t make yourself scarce and feel free to vent if needed. This is a safe place.

    Heather, I can’t imagine the depths of despair. I fear for my sister, who already struggles with depression because of her severe health problems. If ACA is rolled back she’ll be uninsurable or unable to afford insurance. She already feels like she doesn’t have much to live for.

    The reaction here in Orlando is mixed. Our son got drunk after the results, but then moved on to working for political reform. Our daughter is really down in the dumps and trying to refill her own well, so that she can go out and pastor her people. She’s very strong and will get there, but I haven’t seen her this low in a long time.

    Our niece added me to a Facebook group called Come Along Strong, the idea being to identify yourself as a resource for who feel threatened because of their minority status. It might mean giving a ride or giving a shoulder to cry on, and being support for each other. In other words, stronger together.

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  124. Julie Robinson said on November 11, 2016 at 9:21 am

    Which reminds me, have you seen about safety pin movement? You wear one to show that you are an ally and safe person who can be turned to in case of trouble. I used to wear a cross for the same reason.

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  125. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 9:29 am

    A FB friend posted this very sobering link https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/history-tells-us-what-will-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714#.pwu8236cs

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  126. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 9:37 am

    Danny, thanks for saying that about a single payer national system being the only answer.

    If anyone knows something I can do to help make that happen please let me know.

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  127. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 10:01 am

    Actually, Heather, I didn’t realize before that you were the FB friend that posted the Brexit-Trump what comes next link. Thank you.

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  128. Suzanne said on November 11, 2016 at 10:19 am

    Read through the link you shared, Deborah. As if I weren’t depressed enough already…

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  129. Dorothy said on November 11, 2016 at 10:52 am

    Oh LAMary – I’m so sorry to hear about you being laid off. That sucks majorly. You’re the second person I know who lost a job this week. A guy I knew from doing theater in Mount Vernon (but now lives in Portland) got fired this week. No clue why – he just started that job several months ago. Having been through two job losses with my husband I know all too well how awful it can be. I’ll keep my fingers crossed that you find something new.

    I keep feeling like I’ve had the worst nightmare of my life and soon I’ll wake up to reality. I was at the eye doctor yesterday and a little boy in the waiting room was talking about Christmas with his grandparents. He asked them what they wanted for Christmas. I thought “Hey kid, come ask me what I want – I have an answer all ready for you! I want Donald Trump and Mike Pence to say they changed their minds, they don’t really want to be President and Vice President!” I would have loved to see the reactions of all the people seated around me.

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  130. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 11:04 am

    I just read that Paul Ryan has floated out a trial balloon about privatizing Medicare. God save us. I can’t believe how quickly these people have forgotten the bank failures in 2007/2008. It’s almost a forgone conclusion that they’ll get Social Security. Brace yourself.

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  131. Scout said on November 11, 2016 at 11:08 am

    Day three of waking up with a knot in my gut. I don’t know what scares me more, a low IQ bully as president or the collection of misfit toys he’s planning to install. Palin, Ghouliani, Gingrich, Bannon, with Fucking Sheriff Joe as head of HSA. Dear god, we are so fucked.

    My SO and I are already looking at ways to resist and to help those most in danger. It’s small, but the safety pin idea is a start. We agree we are not going to let them come for group a then group b and group c before mobilizing. We have to form the resistance now.

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  132. Dave said on November 11, 2016 at 11:12 am

    Mary, that’s terrible news, did it come out of nowhere, not that it matters, a layoff is a layoff. Somehow, I was very fortunate, even though the railroad industry was known for layoffs, or the more common RR term, furlough, I managed to get through my entire railroad days without one. They are done in reverse seniority order and I always managed to just be above wherever the cutoff was. I join others in sending whatever positive thoughts I can your way.

    I, too, am despondent at the results of this election, I’ve a friend who is so depressed that he is going to go see a therapist about it, he’s probably the biggest liberal I know personally and he never thought this would happen.

    With Trump, from everything he’s ever shown us, it’s all about Trump. That isn’t going to change, he’ll only do whatever will benefit him but perhaps that’s wrong and, oh, never mind, that thought is too screwy to write. My wife thinks that young Barron is also despondent, he’s giving up an entire penthouse floor to move into the confines of the White House. I’m betting that he and Melania don’t spent a lot of time there.

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  133. Heather said on November 11, 2016 at 11:14 am

    My friend just reported that a lesbian couple she knows was attacked last night in Chicago, one of the most welcoming cities for LGBTQ folks. I can’t imagine what’s happening in red states.

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  134. Jolene said on November 11, 2016 at 11:15 am

    Not only have they forgotten the bank failures, Deborah, they’re fixing to create the conditions for them to recur, as one item on the Trump agenda is to repeal or significantly modify Dodd-Frank, the law reforming financial institutions after the crisis.

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  135. BigHank53 said on November 11, 2016 at 11:17 am

    Jeff, my fear is that a lot of Trump voters aren’t expecting much out of Trump in the way of better jobs and economic revival–I mean, they’d sure like them, but how much is a campaign promise worth?

    On the other hand, some of the things that will really push the emotional buttons of the hard right–like images of shuttered Planned Parenthood clinics, video of illegal aliens being herded onto buses and deported, some Middle Eastern visitors being stuffed back on a plane because their passport smelled funny, a few miles of Potempkin wall–all of those things are depressingly cheap and easy to do.

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  136. Scout said on November 11, 2016 at 11:25 am

    LA Mary, I am so sorry. What an awful week. I’m sending you positive thoughts that your skill, knowledge and work ethic leads you to an even better job.

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  137. Peter said on November 11, 2016 at 11:45 am

    Re: Jolene at #45: That was a very interesting video. I have coworkers who had the “privilege” of working on Trump projects, and that first item is absolutely correct – he looks over every bill, every item to be installed. On one level it’s admirable – making sure that he’s only getting the best, and making sure every penny’s accounted for. After a while though, the real intent comes out: he’s constantly looking to see if he’s getting screwed out of something.

    The second item – about his relying on the last person who speaks to him to make a decision – is revealing for something else. There was an article about his disastrous ownership of the New Jersey Generals, and the same thing was said in that article – that no matter what was being discussed, he always agreed with what the last person said. This should make cabinet meetings interesting.

    Previous posters are right – Paul Ryan’s timetable is only 18 months, and if you ask me, this thing is going to burn and crash beforehand.

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  138. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 11:46 am

    Jolene, that’s scary, just think about all of the people who lost their homes to foreclosure and their jobs went away during the recession during W’s administration. A lot of those people are Republican and voted for Trump to save them after he bankrupted his businesses one after the other. And now they’re talking about gambling with Social Security and Medicare. There is no rationality to it. It’s all crazy.

    When Bowie died and then Prince it was sad, but Leonard Cohen is someone that I listened to a lot. His lyrics always got to me. Maybe it’s because I was already so depressed. I’m listening to Cohen now and I keep breaking down into tears.

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  139. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 11:47 am

    Jolene, that’s scary, just think about all of the people who lost their homes to foreclosure and their jobs went away during the recession during W’s administration. A lot of those people are Republican and voted for Trump to save them after he bankrupted his businesses one after the other. And now they’re talking about gambling with Social Security and Medicare. There is no rationality to it. It’s all crazy.

    When Bowie died and then Prince it was sad, but Leonard Cohen is someone that I listened to a lot, his lyrics always got to me. Maybe it’s because I was already so depressed but I’m listening to Cohen now and I keep breaking down into tears.

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  140. Peter said on November 11, 2016 at 11:47 am

    Oh, I forgot – LA Mary, I am truly sorry about the job. My brother in law lost his job a few months back, and, well let’s just say that it’s been a rough ride.

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  141. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 11:48 am

    Not sure how I ended up with duplicate comments?

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  142. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 11:52 am

    My biggest fears about Trump is that, as his victory followed on from Brexit, more right wing authoritarian victories will follow. France? Italy? The destruction of the EU, which has been, for all its faults, a stabilizing factor for peace in Europe? The weakening of NATO? Israel? Pakistan? India?

    Is there a Archduke Ferdinand in our future? Only this time around with nukes?

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  143. MichaelG said on November 11, 2016 at 12:00 pm

    Oh, LAMary, that makes me so sad. My thoughts are with you and I hope you find a new position very soon.

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  144. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 12:06 pm

    Mark Zuckerberg is an immoral person, and that is why I think Facebook is evil: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2016/11/10/mark_zuckerberg_says_fake_news_on_facebook_had_no_impact_on_election.html

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  145. beb said on November 11, 2016 at 12:23 pm

    I’ve found religion in my old age. Every night I pray for the Death of Donald Trump, and Mike Pence if the deity has time. I know it’s not the Christian thing to pray for ill to happen to others. I said I’d found religion, not which one.

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  146. Jean Shaw said on November 11, 2016 at 12:24 pm

    Sherri, Mark Blyth makes a very solid argument that France and Italy are next up, with Germany wobbling.

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  147. LAMary said on November 11, 2016 at 12:24 pm

    We were told layoffs were coming, and I’ve survived four of those over the years. Tough getting hit when I’m about to turn 64. Right now I’m looking at contract recruiting jobs, usually six to twelve month gigs. I don’t really want to start from zero at a new company. I’ve survived five managers, four CEOs and five office changes. Perfect job would b work from home medical recruiting with a start and end date. Then I could take a breather and find another one. Right now I’m sleeping late, applying to stuff online, and hoping Obamacare doesn’t completely disappear until I hit Medicare age. Then I hope Medicare doesn’t disappear.

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  148. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 12:25 pm

    This seems like a reasonable guess at what will happen to the ACA, screw the poor immediately, postpone the middle-class pain a couple of years, and pay off rich people immediately: http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/its-the-taxes-stupid/

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  149. LAMary said on November 11, 2016 at 12:26 pm

    And thank all of you for your concern. Thank you a lot. I haven’t told a lot of people at least in part because it hasn’t completely sunk in for me. It’s not just losing income. It’s losing something that has been a part of my life for 10 years.

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  150. susan said on November 11, 2016 at 12:31 pm

    Beb (145) speaks for me! I add in, to the dog to whom I pray, Ryan, McConnell, Gingrich, Ghouliani…well, the whole ‘Thug hierarchy and minions. That’s a lot to prey for, but might as well go high (as our First Lady says).

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  151. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 12:33 pm

    This seems useful now: http://boingboing.net/2016/11/11/how-to-intervene-if-you-witnes.html

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  152. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 1:05 pm

    Sherri, holy cow that link about the future of the ACA or any replacement makes perfect sense, unfortunately. It wasn’t fun to read by any means. I still wonder what we can do about it? It seems hopeless right now.

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  153. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 1:07 pm

    Will the media get any better about calling out standard Republican lies in the Trump presidency? Or will Paul Ryan still be the wonky intellectual instead of the radical extremist that he really is?


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  154. Joe Kobiela said on November 11, 2016 at 1:22 pm

    Beb and Susan,
    That is just really really sick.
    Jeff your a man of the cloth, could you please explain why this is so wrong on every level.
    You may think I’m mean, or uneducated, or deplorable, and I never agreed with President Obamas policy’s , but never would I wish death on him, I know I’m in the minority on this board maybe I don’t agree with you but I always respected your views and your right to express them, but you lost me on this, what a bunch of hypocrites, and don’t throw the people talked bad about Obama at me, that was wrong also, all you have done is lowered yourself so into the cesspool those people crawled out of. Is this how you raised your family? is this what you have taught them? This is aceptable?
    You disagree with some one so you hope thy die?
    What a sad way to live.
    Pilot Joe

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  155. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 1:28 pm

    Regardless of what happens in the next 2 years, odds are that the Dems lose seats in the Senate, simply because they have more seats to lose. Dems have 26 seats up in 2018 to 8 for Republicans (27 if you include Bernie). That’s going to be difficult.

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  156. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 1:29 pm

    Joe, I think that Beb was telling a joke, maybe not the most thoughtful one. People we need to go high, it’s hard to do believe me, when things look bleak for so many others.

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  157. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 1:33 pm

    Plus, we don’t know what new voter suppression laws are coming yet.

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  158. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 1:34 pm

    Joe, what do you think when you read about people fearing losing their healthcare or their civil liberties under the Trump administration? How do you answer them? I really want to know?

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  159. Scout said on November 11, 2016 at 1:45 pm

    Joe’s outrage is selective.

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  160. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 2:09 pm

    I keep reading that the Dems forgot about the WWC. What were the Dems supposed to do about the WWC? What should they have done, in the context of the situation they were in, to retain or attract the WWC? Why do they have the support of the non-white working class, but not the WWC? Why did saving the auto industry despite the opposition of the Republicans not keep Michigan in the Dem column? If Hillary was not liberal enough, why did Russ Feingold lose in Wisconsin? Teachout in NY?

    If you’re going to explain this as an economic reaction, going to blame the Dems for being excessively neoliberal, whatever that means, then these are the questions I want to understand.

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  161. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 2:29 pm

    What to do? http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/11/finish-your-ugly-crying-heres-what-comes-next.html

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  162. Jolene said on November 11, 2016 at 2:31 pm

    Here is an interview with a political scientist from the University of Wisconsin that is pretty good on the interplay of racial and economic issues. She has spent lots of time interviewing people in rural Wisconsin, which, as we all know, voted Republican for the first time since 1984.

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  163. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 2:31 pm

    Remember the MSM is owned by corporations who always need something from government. Pay attention to how,this affects their,coverage of the Trump presidency.


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  164. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 2:35 pm

    Where were these articles before the election? http://www.vox.com/2016/11/11/13592178/obamacare-trump-repeal-patients

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  165. Jerri said on November 11, 2016 at 2:43 pm

    Sherri, I thought that Charlie Pierce had a good explanation for the loss of the WWC here:

    LAMary, my thoughts are with you. Your news broke my stoicism and brought me to tears for the first time this week. I rely on the ACA for my healthcare and will be signing up on the Maryland exchange this weekend, even if it seems futile. Life ahead looks to be nasty, brutish, and short.

    Joe, I often thought that comments directed to you were harsh. Now I don’t think they were harsh enough. You’ll enjoy the Trump era.

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  166. alex said on November 11, 2016 at 3:03 pm

    It’s interesting that Joe thinks it’s his business to come here and appoint himself referee over how we talk and call fouls on it.

    I’m sure when he goes to right-wing web sites he doesn’t tell people there what to do.

    Funny, we had a couple of other trolls here in the past who played the same game but eventually flaked off.

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  167. Jakash said on November 11, 2016 at 3:04 pm

    All this talk about Rump and the WWC. I just gotta mention again — figures at this point still show he got less votes than Romney and less than 200,000 more than McCain. Sorry to say it, but he didn’t WIN as much as Hillary LOST. (Even though she got more votes than him, of course.)

    She didn’t need to appeal to the WWC; that was a lost cause. She needed to make clear to African-American and millennial voters that the only way to assure Obama’s legacy, particularly Obamacare, was voting for her. I know she, Obama, Michelle and many others TRIED to do that. But, for all the talk about the number of uneducated R’s going for Rump, they at least had enough sense to vote for the Republican, like they always do, and despicable as he is. Those well-educated, yet clueless millennials voting for Stein or Johnson were as dumb about this election as any Evangelical who thinks the world is 6,000 years old is about paleontology.

    As for Jeff (tmmo) and others pushing the “18-months and the clock is ticking” idea. Would that it were true! Unfortunately, I remember the 2004 election. Whatever one thought about W. in 2000, he’d already done about as much to adversely affect the country as he could by 2004 and he managed to swift-boat his way to re-election with more votes than anybody but Obama has gotten since. As bad as things were in 2008, and with freaking SHE-WHO as his VP choice, R’s still gave McCain nearly as many votes as Rump just got.

    I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but I’m not deluding myself into thinking that R’s are actually going to hold this President, Senate or House responsible for ANYTHING. They certainly didn’t seem to mind the fact that McConnell and the traitors from David C.’s post (#76) yesterday put party above country for the 8 years of Obama’s presidency, nor the fact that the Russians and the FBI director did their best to swing this election to their guy. Until Democrats and left-leaning independents learn to VOTE in off-year elections and for the incrementalism of candidates like Hillary over the pie-in-the-sky fantasy of electing somebody like Stein, we’re in for a rough ride, indeed.

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  168. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 3:06 pm

    Oh, I agree with Charlie Pierce, Jerri. I’ve been saying that this entire election. But I still get pushback, not just here, even from people who admit the role of bigotry, who say the Dems abandoned the blue collar workers. One friend who told me that yesterday was stunned when I told her that Dems had not won a majority of white votes in a presidential election since 1964, and that the candidate who did the best was Bill Clinton, now being blamed for everything wrong with the Democrats.

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  169. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 3:09 pm

    A list of organizations protecting the vulnerable: http://jezebel.com/a-list-of-pro-women-pro-immigrant-pro-earth-anti-big-1788752078

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  170. Peter said on November 11, 2016 at 3:26 pm

    Beb and Susan,

    Here’s why you shouldn’t pray for Trump and Pence to exit this mortal coil – it will only make them heroes. If you couldn’t stomach last Tuesday imagine what a state funeral would be like.

    No, the best outcome would be for a scandal to bring the whole burning outhouse down.

    Sherri: You mean Clinton didn’t get a majority of white votes in ’96? Well I’ll be.

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  171. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 3:28 pm

    Here’s what I don’t get about the rural red state voters who are angry that they were forgotten, passed over for benefits politically and disrespected etc: what in the world makes them think that a New York billionaire with a penchant for lying and cheating all of his life gives one flying fuck about them? Except to dupe them into voting for him so he can bask in some narcissistic dream he has about himself as being the most powerful man in the world? I keep reading the articles about them including the one that Jolene linked to in her comment at #162. I realize that Trump figured out the narrative they might hear and listen to, but why in the hell would they believe him? I can actually understand how vacuous white suburban women would be seduced by Ivanka more than I can understand the angry, rural red staters. I just don’t get it.

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  172. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 11, 2016 at 3:35 pm

    Joe, I’d counsel against praying for someone’s death in large part because of the potential harm it does to the spirit of the one offering up such petitions. God’s used to our cries for vengeance and sorts them out accordingly (perhaps for some kind of cosmic mulch, I don’t know), but asking for someone to die — my Tibetan Buddhist spiritual director and I agree — has some nasty potential for rebound.

    I’ve argued that there are certain people for whom one’s prayers that said person might be stricken with an uncomfortable disease are allowable, but she’s pretty sure that’s a no. You pray to take their suffering onto yourself, and that they might know enlightenment and peace, and keep going. But Paul did say in Romans 12:20, citing Proverbs 25:22, that you can know doing kindnesses for your enemies is actually more painful for them than heaping burning coals on their head. That seems like a loophole for a certain amount of vindictiveness, but it’s pretty tightly constrained.

    Seriously, don’t pray for someone to die. Even (especially) if they seem to deserve it. If we all got what we deserved, none would be left standing. (Psalm 130:3)

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  173. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 3:36 pm

    Jolene, interesting article, but having grown up in a rural area in the 60s and 70s, those feelings and resentments and beliefs were there then. In fact, the rise of the Klan and the temperance movement in the 20s was driven in no small part by a city/rural divide and fear of immigrants. Immigration laws were restricted then that were not loosened until 1965 (and there are people in the Trump campaign who want to undo that 1965 law).

    It still doesn’t really explain what Dems did to lose the working class, other than become more liberal. The Dems became more liberal because of the Vietnam War and race and women’s rights. How do you cross that divide?

    I do empathize with rural people. I do know them, I know what their resentments are. They are my family. I can’t talk with them about politics because they resent who I am nd what I’ve become.

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  174. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 11, 2016 at 3:36 pm

    At this point, Peter has a good point, too.

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  175. Heather said on November 11, 2016 at 3:37 pm

    Deborah, this quote from Richard Rorty from 1998 has been going around. When fear and anger are driving you, it’s very hard to think straight. I also think that a lack of critical thinking and knowledge, helped in part by disinvestment in education, is to blame. https://twitter.com/coleenlisa/status/796359436000522240

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  176. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 3:43 pm

    Peter: Bill Clinton won 44% of the white vote in 96, Bob Dole 46%, Perot 9%. (http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-1996/)

    I was wrong, though, about Clinton doing the best. Carter won 48% in 76, but Ford won 52%.

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  177. adrianne said on November 11, 2016 at 3:44 pm

    LA Mary, what a tough blow. I’m hoping that you’re able to find a gig to get you through to retirement. When I got tossed overboard at my last newspaper, it was a huge blow, but ultimately I found a much better job that I enjoy. Hang in there.

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  178. brian stouder said on November 11, 2016 at 3:56 pm

    Joe – everything else aside, it will be very interesting to watch President-elect Trump construct his cabinet.

    Charlie Savage, at his lecture last night at IPFW, made a fascinating point about the Obama cabinet (mostly all lawyers, including the president himself) and his predecessor’s cabinet (mostly non-lawyers, including the president himself)

    That made a powerful difference in the way the two different administrations proceeded.

    In THAT regard, the presence of Pence and Gingerich and Giuliani 9et al) is somewhat comforting (at least in terms of picking one’s poison!) in that they should be able to steer our new president away from the biggest (or most Yuge!) rocks.

    On second thought, Chris Christie is a bigly lawyer, too; and (it looks like) all he’s going to show us is how quickly President-elect Trump can decisively cut his losses and fire that guy, before he jams the new president on an NYC bridge.

    By way of saying, I think we all accept that we have a new president, and I believe that we all are sincerely hoping for the best, going forward.

    PS – my guess is that the key word in the “Repeal and replace” stance, on the ACA, is “replace”. I’m hoping they mostly leave it alone (while tinkering around the edges) because in the alternative, they will OWN every terrible outcome across the nation. They’ll want credit for having hearts, while tinkering around enough to try and say “We killed the beast!”)

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  179. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 3:59 pm

    Really, I would love to hear Joe’s take on Trump. I would love to hear his views on what Trump will do to make this country great. I haven’t heard anything from an actual person I “know” even though it’s virtual and I don’t know anymore about Joe except what he shares here. But I’m super ignorant about the reason someone voted for him. I promise not to judge you, Joe, although that’s going to be difficult as my daughter is in line to lose her healthcare. But I will honestly try to be fair and balanced. I think I’m a reasonable person.

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  180. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 4:02 pm


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  181. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 4:10 pm

    Heather, at #175, are we really there? I’m feeling super ignorant about the country and the world right now. I’ve been living in my own little bubble of reality, I guess. Why does this feel like high school? The soshes, the nerds, and the greasers? Have we not evolved beyond that?

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  182. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 4:13 pm

    Don, Jr., Ivanka, and Eric are all on Trump’s transition team. They’re also supposed to be running The Trump Org, right, now the Trump has won? Good thing we didn’t elect “the most corrupt candidate ever” with her terrible pay to play foundation.

    There are so many levels on which this presidency is a fucking nightmare. Such a good thing the media spent so much time on emails. And thanks, Jim Comey, for warning us about more emails that had nothing to do with anything but could very well have tipped the election. Hope you like being Trump’s bitch.

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  183. Suzanne said on November 11, 2016 at 4:14 pm

    Deborah @ 171. I’ve said that exact same thing this whole election cycle. I get the angst. I understand the anger. I feel the pain of watching your way of life and job disappear. But what I have never understood, and still don’t, is why anyone in that situation believes that Trump will do a damn thing for them. He surely had never set foot in the midwest outside of Chicago before this election. He has no history of caring about anyone he considers at a lower station than his (which would be everybody), and I doubt he could find Indiana on a map with Gov (now VP) My Pants standing next to him giving him clues. On top of that, this angry mob that wants change, proceeds to vote in a bunch of incumbent Republicans to control Congress.

    Go home, America. You’re drunk and disorderly.

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  184. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 4:17 pm

    Trump wants to postpone the Trump U lawsuit because he’s too busy getting ready for the presidency. Then he’ll be too busy being president, I assume. But didn’t we already determine that a lawsuit against a sitting president could go forward? Or is that only if you’re a Democrat.


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  185. Joe Kobiela said on November 11, 2016 at 4:18 pm

    Thanks for being the calm water in a raging sea, Debra I don’t have the answer but I can’t believe they will just cut off health care, they will have to have some thing to replace Obama care, Mr Trump has already stated they will need to cover pre existing condition, will it be more expensive? I have no idea, but how much were lil birds premiums going up this year? 50-75-100%? And Alex, I’m not going anywhere, if Nancy tells me to leave I will, I dont think she will, and feel free to cuss me, call me names, say any horrible things about me you want, believe me I have weathered much worse, you wont hurt my feelings.
    I saw where some colleges were having cry ins and therapy dogs to comfort the students due to Hillarys losing the election, if any one would like to come over my 125lbs Fluffy Golden Chow is available for petting.
    No charge.
    Pilot Joe

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  186. Danny said on November 11, 2016 at 4:19 pm

    Sherri, I don’t think it’s the Dems who lost the working class, I think it’s more the establishment of both parties who have. Which is why many are saying this election was about change and that status quo candidates were going to have a problems. And that has the ring of truth when you look at Bernie’s popularity.

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  187. David C. said on November 11, 2016 at 4:22 pm

    On the way home, I saw a Hillary effigy hanging in someone’s front yard. Stay classy.

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  188. Heather said on November 11, 2016 at 4:28 pm

    Deborah, we are there, I’m afraid. And yeah, life is high school. Adults just have learned to pretend it isn’t.

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  189. David C. said on November 11, 2016 at 4:29 pm

    I found this slightly comforting, I need a lot more, but it’s a start.


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  190. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 4:35 pm

    Joe, thanks, appreciated. Little Bird’s premiums didn’t go up since she is eligible for Medicaid because of her condition. That will of course be cut back now if not eliminated because she was included because of the ACA Medicaid expansion. We will have to wait and see what happens but all indications are that it doesn’t look good. My husband and I will always take care of her as long as we are able. But my heart goes out to the many people who don’t have that support and there are many.

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  191. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 4:46 pm

    Joe, pre-existing conditions can’t be covered without a large enough pool of relatively healthy subscribers. That’s why the individual mandate was in the ACA. Republicans attacked the individual mandate, and were pissed at Chief Justice Roberts when he let it stand.

    Private insurers will not cover pre-existing conditions at a price most people can afford unless forced to by the government. Trump wants to get rid of state boundaries for buying insurance; what that really means is getting rid of state regulation of insurance companies. They’ll all in up in Mississippi offering shit coverage, and if your state requires more than shit coverage, they just won’t sell in your state. If you’re a white collar worker at a big company, it probably won’t be a problem, because you’re company probably self insures and has some motivation to provide better than shit coverage, but most people are screwed.

    And there are a lot of details in the ACA beyond pre-existing conditions, like birth control coverage (think My Pants wants to keep that?), removing lifetime caps (a big deal if you get cancer), and more. I’ve already posted one link of a possibility if you actually care about what might happen rather than assuming the best (@148). Another guess, from the same site but a different author: http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/what-might-a-minimum-replacement-plan-look-like/

    Conservative Republicans have fought every inch of government health care since forever, Joe. They fought Medicare, they fought Medicaid, they fought Clinton’s plan, they refused to even engage with Obama’s plan. Given full control off all branches of government by the most conservative Republicans in our lifetimes, I don’t see lots f reasons to be optimistic. They just won an election without promising anything specific that anybody believed; why do you believe they can’t do what they want?

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  192. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 4:51 pm

    Danny, let’s be clear. The non-white working class didn’t leave the Dems, and they didn’t vote to blow everything up. There is a difference. When you know what you have to lose, you don’t blow shit up. That’s the difference white privilege makes in the working class.

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  193. Little Bird said on November 11, 2016 at 4:54 pm

    I have a pre-existing condition. When I was younger, before ACA, insurance was prohibitively too expensive to buy coverage for me. One company wanted $1,000/month. Now I have Medicaid, but if the GOP dismantles everything, I’m left again with no coverage. And I can’t work. So tell me, what are my recourses if I lose coverage and one of my many tumors decides to turn cancerous?

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  194. Danny said on November 11, 2016 at 5:10 pm

    Sherri, Trump did better than Romney (and maybe a few other previous GOP candidates) among non-white’s. Not earth-shatteringly so, but a few percentage points. And conversely, Clinton did not do as well as Obama with non-whites. So while these two things taken together do not equate to “voting to blow everything up,” they do skew towards non-white working class not being overly excited about status quo.

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  195. David C. said on November 11, 2016 at 5:12 pm

    Early in the campaign, Trump said they should cover pre-existing conditions, but when his plan was released, it was pretty much Paul Ryan’s. That doesn’t cover pre-existing conditions and used large deductibles with a health savings account, which are great if you’re healthy and/or wealthy. I have one at work and it’s miserable, especially when mine started at age 55, so I didn’t have a lot of time to accumulate a savings cushion. For pre-existing conditions, the Ryan plan uses state based high risk pools. High risk pools are high cost pools. They existed before ACA and they didn’t work. So there’s probably no reason they’ll start working when they’re tried again.

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  196. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 5:16 pm

    Little Bird did get some good news today. Because she has been contacting her healthcare providers relentlessly since Tuesday, she has been able to wrangle some help. She has had a couple of surgeries recently and because of her condition the incisions take forever to heal. She also has allergies to latex and adhesives so we had to initially order special bandages for her from Sweden. Now they are available here at CVS but they’re still very expensive, like 3 for $17 and she needs one a day. The wound clinic worked out a deal for her where she can now get them through her insurance (as long as it lasts anyway). She has another surgery On Dec 8 for a tumor on the back of her head. She will have to have some of her hair shaved off for this but she is upbeat about it and is looking into new and unique hairstyles after.

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  197. Jolene said on November 11, 2016 at 5:23 pm

    Here’s a short piece from the NYT that reports Trump’s recent statement that, after talking with President Obama, he will consider retaining two provisions of the ACA: the requirement to cover people with pre-existing conditions and the provision that allows people to keep their kids on their policies up to age 26.

    In addition to the sell-across-state lines idea that Sherri mentioned, Trump and other conservatives have talked about the idea of high-risk pools, which create a community of people who are otherwise uninsurable because of pre-existing conditions. This idea was tried in various states prior to adoption of the ACA, but they mostly failed because, without healthy customers, the insurance was too expensive.

    If Donald Trump actually knew anything about healthcare other than that he had to decry the ACA to get elected as a Republican, he would know that the only way any insurance program can keep costs to a manageable level is to create a risk pool that contains a substantial proportion of healthy people. Any insurance policy only works if only a few people are using it at a time. If houses burned down more often or if our cars were demolished in accidents every year, those policies would be more expensive too. Those costs are controlled, at least somewhat, by requiring insurance of everyone who holds a mortgage or drives a car. The main problem with the ACA is that the penalty for failure to enroll is too small. If it approached, say, 70% of the cost of a policy, there’d be higher enrollment and less pressure on premiums and deductibles.

    P.S. I”m sure Sherri will have said more smart things about health insurance (in addition to her post @191), so forgive me if this is redundant.

    The main problem with the ACA is that the pen

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  198. Julie Robinson said on November 11, 2016 at 5:27 pm

    That must be terrifyingly to think about, Little Bird, and my sister will be in the boat with you.

    And I’d like to add this info for everyone (Joe) who wants to complain about how the ACA ruined insurance and how the premiums are going up. We have insurance through my husband’s job, which covers his premiums, but not mine. For the last five years it’s cost 11K per year. It hasn’t gone up, thank goodness, but it’s a good chunk of his take-home and almost quadruple mine. The health care industry is broken, and we’re all paying a heavy price.

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  199. Jolene said on November 11, 2016 at 5:28 pm

    Ha! It was David C. @195 who beat me to the punch.

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  200. Jolene said on November 11, 2016 at 5:38 pm

    Give Barack Obama credit for putting a bug in Trump’s ear about keeping those popular provisions of the ACA. Now he has said on record that he will consider keeping them, and it will be hard to back away from those ideas. The insurance industry will scream about the idea of keeping those provisions without a mandate, and consumers will, I hope, scream about the idea of dropping them.

    Trump has previously said that he wants everyone to have health insurance, but, of course, he had to oppose the ACA. So now, he is stuck. Whatever he does is going to make some many very unhappy and will be dangerous for some. He is going to find out in a hurry that being president is actually hard and that, attaining his only real goals–winning and being admired–will not be easy to achieve.

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  201. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 5:52 pm

    Danny, Shelby County also happened since the 2012 election.

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  202. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 5:52 pm

    Trump is never stuck, Jolene. He will say whatever he needs to say at the moment, and do whatever the last person he talked to convinced him of.

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  203. Colleen said on November 11, 2016 at 5:55 pm

    Late to the party, but LAMary, add mind to the list of “I’m sorry” about your job. In the past ten years, both my husband and I have lost jobs in fields we’d been in for a long time. It’s hard…it messes with your very identity sometimes….at least it did for me. Eventually we landed butter side up, and I hope you will too.

    I have to say, I was having the same thought as Jeff(tmmo) about the next 18 months to 2 years. Ok guys, you have both chambers of Congress and the White House. Have at it and don’t eff it up. Of course, they wILL eff it up, and we will have the mid terms to give an opportunity for some change.

    But dear GOD don’t let anything happen to Trump. The idea of President MyPants is chilling.

    And regarding lessening regulations on health insurance companies…I don’t know that I like that idea. Time and time again, corporations have proven that unless they are mandated by law, they will not behave in a moral manner. “Sure we can insure you…..for 2 grand a month.”

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  204. Colleen said on November 11, 2016 at 5:57 pm

    Julie @ 198: our health insurance goes up every year. Usually juuuussst about the same amount as our paltry pay raises.

    My husband turns 65 in March. Can’t wait to get him off my insurance!

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  205. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 5:58 pm

    Wow, Nancy’s comments are over 200 in this thread.

    My appetite is gone, my husband got some chocolates from one of his students and I’ve had a few of those today and some coffee. I had been trying to get plenty of protein to heal my fractured metatarsal sooner but today I couldn’t muster it. Maybe tomorrow.

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  206. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 6:01 pm

    At Donald Trump’s alma mater: http://billypenn.com/2016/11/11/n-er-lynching-group-text-shocks-penn-freshmen/

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  207. Mark P. said on November 11, 2016 at 6:14 pm

    Ryan has been quoted as saying this is the time to privatize Medicare. I hope the news media give this the coverage it deserves (I am not optimistic about it). A threat to Medicare might get through to some of those older Trump supporters. Reaching 65 reduced my health insurance cost from more than $500 a month for a high-deductible policy to the standard Medicare fee. If Medicare goes private, almost everyone older than 65 can expect private health insurance to cost as much as mine did when I was 64. Imagine paying that on the average Social Security income. That’s always assuming the Republican monsters don’t destroy Social Security, too. The privatization plan is so evil it is almost beyond comprehension.

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  208. Charlotte said on November 11, 2016 at 6:27 pm

    Little Bird — I’m with you in the ACA boat. Basically this week saw my life plan blown up, and I’m still trying to figure it out. I got and kept a corporate job, even after I had published a novel, so that I could buy and pay off a cheap house in a place I want to live. Did that. Paid off my student loans, paid off the house — quit my job to finish my second book which has been limping along. Quit a job by the way that didn’t offer insurance, since Cisco made me a permalancer — I was responsible. I have retirement savings. But without the ACA, I won’t be able to afford healthcare, and now that I’m in the dread 50-65 demographic, will I even be able to find coverage? At what price? So then what? I risk my health or my house … to say nothing of the fact that my retirement savings are predicated on having social security and Medicare … which Paul Ryan wants to blow up.

    And that’s not even touching the coal/oil rush that’s about to happen which will make the planet uninhabitable. Or my gay and brown and black friends being menaced. Or the guys in pickup trucks who have been menacing my wee Honda fit the past couple of weeks. Or the privatizaton of public lands.

    I’m sure I’ll rally and get my fight on again, but right now, I’m stunned.

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  209. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 6:49 pm

    Not that anybody’s paying attention, but we’re still counting votes here on the West Coast, and Clinton’s lead is up to 2 million in the popular vote. Try to imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would be going on if this were happening to a Republican. This means that the Dems have won the popular vote for president in all but one election since 1988.

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  210. Little Bird said on November 11, 2016 at 6:52 pm

    You’re way ahead of the game. Far more than I am. I’m just treading water. Most of it is we didn’t know what we didn’t know. And that goes back a couple of decades. Now it’s try to do what we can, and make jokes when we can. Because if you can’t laugh about your own personal experience, you might just start screaming.

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  211. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 6:57 pm

    Crooks and Liars sums up what I said about Trump and the ACA more pithily: http://crooksandliars.com/2016/11/no-donald-trump-not-going-keep-parts

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  212. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 7:04 pm

    I should have mentioned this earlier, but because of all of the election depression I almost forgot to say that my dad served in the Navy during WW2 and my husband served in the army In Vietnam. Proud of them both.

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  213. susan said on November 11, 2016 at 7:08 pm

    Jeff, that’s why you are a pastor and I am not. You have a mean and vindictive god hovering over you, throwing down guilt bombs.

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  214. Charlotte said on November 11, 2016 at 7:08 pm

    LA Mary — also huge apologies. So busy whining about my own situation I forgot to say how sorry I am about your job —I do think you might have luck with contract gigs though. I’m seeing them start to trickle in, and if the economy goes as bad as it looks like it might, contract work always picks up … but still. A blow.

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  215. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 7:18 pm

    I find Theda Skocpol’s analysis one of the more compelling I’ve read: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/theda-skocpol-responds-to-judis

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  216. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 11, 2016 at 8:01 pm

    susan – Huh?

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  217. LAMary said on November 11, 2016 at 8:09 pm

    I’m hanging in. Interestingly, my mild tinnitus seems to have gone away. I’m wondering if the hissing air filtration system in my office was causing it. Colleen, you’re right about the identity thing. I’ve changed my facebook profile picture from a four year me in a nurse outfit to photo of my dog looking crazy holding her crazy looking chicken toy.
    I got new, stronger reading glasses about a month ago and I’m using at least some of this time reading the books I bought to celebrate the new reading glasses. Two “best of” compilations of short stories, best of 2015 and 2016.

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  218. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 8:46 pm

    I guess here’s my fundamental frustration with all these “reach out and hug a Trump supporter” articles. It’s not that I don’t know, understand, and care about Trump supporters and their problems. It’s that I disagree with them on what to do about those problems. There are some non-negotiables for me, and the Trump campaign bumped up hard against them. Love your neighbor as yourself, and there isn’t a caveat there for immigrants, people of a different religion, lesbians, gays, trans people; it’s a blanket, everybody is covered rule. Treat everybody as a human being, deserving of respect, dignity, autonomy, agency, and courtesy. That includes women.

    Most Trump supporters would say they agree with these things, I know. I say, if you voted for Trump, you have a different understanding of those words than I do. If you sneer at political correctness, you have a different understanding of those words than I do. If you want to build a wall, or stop Muslims from entering the US, you have a different understanding of those words than I do. If you think it’s okay to treat women the way Trump does, you have a different understanding of those words than I do.

    If you see the Confederate flag and think “heritage, not hate”, you have a different understanding of those words than I do.

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  219. Diane said on November 11, 2016 at 9:13 pm

    Deborah, I don’t think the white working class believed Trump would make anything better for them; they don’t think they need government or policy. I come from the WWC and like Sherri, I have WWC, Trump voting, relatives. So my observations are anecdotal and without statistical validity.) A positive message just wasn’t important this election cycle. They think they can do it all on their own if the government would just stopping collecting taxes from them and giving everything away for free to minorities. This election was about anger. They are angry and resentful beyond rationality. This election was a national temper tantrum. Who hasn’t seen someone destroy something valuable in a fit of anger (or done it themselves)?

    God knows what the fix is, I certainly don’t. But beyond the spiritual detriments to praying for someone’s death, Pence is worse, far worse because he has a facade of sanity. And then there’s Ryan. So no, that’s not a plan. But my prayer is that this election causes armchair liberals (looking at myself here) to get active. Pick a local cause and get active. I am hearing a lot of people say that they are and my prayer is that this feeling lasts. I really don’t want to fucking spend my time, energy and money on political action at this point in my life. But I’m a middle aged white woman and my country has asked very little of me and on this veterans’ day I look at a picture of my very young father in uniform going off to WWII and I will be damned (I suspect literally) if I do nothing to prevent what he fought for from going to shit. What I do may achieve nothing and may amount to nothing but I am getting off of my fat ass.

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  220. Sue said on November 11, 2016 at 9:40 pm

    With the privatization of Medicare, Paul Ryan is going to get what he wants, and has wanted for years. But of course it will be ‘phased in’ so current oldsters won’t be in any danger. Hope to gods that they find a cure for alzheimers and related dementia illnesses before then, because Ryan will be nicely retired on a government pension by the time elderly people will be forced to find their own insurance on a for-profit marketplace. Anyone with an elderly relative, you know what I mean when I say what an absolute hellhole our seniors are going to be thrown into. I wish I believed in Hell because Ryan so truly belongs there.

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  221. Deborah said on November 11, 2016 at 9:48 pm

    I hear you Diane, I’ve been trying to think of ways that I can contribute. In Santa Fe our apartment is next door to a Boys and Girls Club, it’s a nobrainer and today Little Bird and I talked about volunteering there after seeing it on the list that someone here linked to about ways to get involved.

    I do have some thoughts about WWC Trump supporters that I’m still trying to process. I’ll share when I’ve thought it through a bit more.

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  222. St Bitch said on November 11, 2016 at 10:31 pm

    Obama was certainly gracious and classy in ‘the room where it happened’ (ala Hamilton); but above all he was being smart. As Jolene and others have pointed out, Trump responds to acceptance and inclusiveness. While Obama’s suggestions won’t be the last thing Trump hears when he’s making what are sure to be self-serving decisions, they must have the added weight of not only coming from a two-termer with high approval ratings, but from someone with the instinct, insight and statistics to craft an appeal to his successor’s ongoing desire for popularity. We shall see.

    Meanwhile, Samantha Bee is pointing out that some badass female senators have just been elected: Tammy Duckworth, Pramila Jayapal, Catherine Cortez Masto, and Kamala Harris. Take heart.

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  223. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 10:47 pm

    Jayapal is a Rep, not a Senator, and I hope she’s badass, but fear she’s more noise than anything real. She wasn’t that much in the legislature, and rather than challenge the one term centrist Dem incumbent in her majority minority district, ran against another very progressive Dem in an open seat that’s a safely progressive Dem seat. Thanks to Bernie’s endorsement, she was able to raise a lot of outside money and win the race, but there’s a pretty decent chance she could have done that in her own district, too, and Washington would be sending two new progressives to DC.

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  224. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 11:11 pm

    He didn’t really want to be president. He just loved the rallies.


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  225. Sherri said on November 11, 2016 at 11:18 pm

    How to effectively contact your Congressmember: https://storify.com/editoremilye/i-worked-for-congress-for-six-years

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  226. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 1:15 am

    Kushner wanted to know how many of the West Wing staff would be staying for the next administration. Unclear on the concept.


    Recommended reading: Imperial Life in the Emerald City, by Rajiv Chandrasekaran, about another leader in over his head putting together a government of incompetents based on ideology and cronyism rather than subject knowledge. But, hey, I hear Scott Adams can learn anything in a couple of hours, so this should all be no problem, right?

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  227. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 3:21 am

    Yeah, the problem was that Hillary called them deplorables, not that a bunch of people were okay with a candidate openly courting them: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-press-and-donald-trumps-army-of.html

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  228. Deborah said on November 12, 2016 at 7:39 am

    Did any of you watch Rachel Maddow last night? She got into some wild stuff that is either dangerously overblown or creepily on target. She had a guest, Masha Geller, a former Russian journalist who has written a book about Putin. Geller sees similarities in Trump and warns of his seeming autocratic ways. Then later Rachel had Richard Engel (the NBC foreign correspondent) who talked about what Europeans see when they watch Trump. According to him they also see familiar signs of an autocratic manipulator http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/how-to-spot-signs-of-authoritarianism-s-creep-80724077189. I think Rachel can be an alarmist, but I must say I found it chilling. These things happen in countries when people stand around and say it’s not possible.

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  229. Deborah said on November 12, 2016 at 7:43 am

    I see that link didn’t work. Try this http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/how-to-spot-signs-of-authoritarianism-s-creep-807240771892

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  230. Suzanne said on November 12, 2016 at 8:15 am

    Deborah, I didn’t watch the video but agree that Rachel Maddow can be over the top. That said, I am chilled to the bone by this. I’m sure I’ve referenced it before but the book In the Garden of the Beasts by Erik Larson seems so eerily similar. When Hitler came on the scene, almost no one thought he would last because he was too ridiculous for anyone to believe. When there were isolated incidents of Jews being harassed or assaulted, almost no one thought it was a trend. Until it was too late.
    And I have way, way too many friends who believe that since people prayed about the election, and Trump won, it’s the will of God.

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  231. adrianne said on November 12, 2016 at 8:29 am

    Paul Ryan, whom I can’t think of without substituting the phrase “zombie-eyed granny starver” (thanks, Charlie Pierce), is the real danger. Not surprising that he whipped out his favorite go-to policy, eliminating Medicare, not two days after the election. What a waste. And he’s one of those conservatives who benefited greatly from, oh, Social Security death benefits after his dad died. But cut them off for everyone else!

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  232. alex said on November 12, 2016 at 9:07 am

    Here’s someone who understands soft racism and bigotry just as I do and articulates it very well. As I said the other day, if you abide other people in their bigotry then you are no better than those people.

    Those who feel the need to proclaim that they’re not racists or bigots or misogynists are just putting their guilty conscience on full display. The only difference between such people and avowed haters is that they don’t have the balls to own it.

    I’m becoming concerned that people interpret this election as open season on people like me and I’m terrified.

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  233. Julie Robinson said on November 12, 2016 at 9:42 am

    In the Garden of the Beasts is chilling and should be required reading right about now.

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  234. Deborah said on November 12, 2016 at 9:57 am

    Alex, I wish I could alleviate your fears, but I can’t. That link seems right on to me. It’s about race to a great degree.

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  235. carl said on November 12, 2016 at 10:03 am

    Seeing the reference to In the Garden of Beasts, here’s a favorite of mine:

    What I Think About When They Say Donald Trump Cannot Possibly Become President
    Farran Smith Nehme, 2/25/16 at Self-Styled Siren


    … From The Past Is Myself, the memoir of an Englishwoman named Christabel Bielenberg. In the early 1930s she fell in love with a German law student named Peter Bielenberg, married him in 1934, and stayed with him in Germany throughout the war, even as he was arrested and sent to Ravensbruck for involvement in the July 20, 1944 plot to kill Hitler.

    The year is 1932, and Christabel is trying to understand German politics.

    Hitler was himself was to speak to an open-air rally, and the venue was — not inappropriately as Peter did not fail to point out — Hagenbeck’s Zoo. A huge area had been cordoned off, and rows of burly Storm-troopers wedged the milling crows into orderly rectangles. Peter survived the community singing, the rolling of the drums, the National and the Party anthems, but his reaction to the usual reverberating start was unequivocal. My ears were hardly attuned to the Leader’s Austrian accent, before I found myself being marched out of the enclosure. Up against the giraffe house, well within earshot of and successfully silencing some Party stalwarts in brown pillbox hats who were rattling collection boxes under the noses of luckless late-comers, Peter delivered himself of one of his rare political pronouncements.

    “You may think that Germans are political idiots, Chris,” he said very loudly and very firmly, “and you may be right, but of one thing I can assure you, they won’t be so stupid as to fall for that clown.”

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  236. LindaG said on November 12, 2016 at 10:23 am

    So Trump wants to continue to hold rallies? Maybe they can exhume Leni Riefenstahl and she could film them.

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  237. Heather said on November 12, 2016 at 10:29 am

    Deborah, that is the problem. People don’t want to believe what could potentially happen. We have to be clear-eyed about this. That writer whose Twitter feed I posted a couple days ago, Sarah Kendzior has been reporting on the possibilities for a year and says that the MSM didn’t want to listen to her–after she was on MSNBC and talked about it they never had her on again. I don’t want to believe it either–but that’s the danger.

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  238. Charlotte said on November 12, 2016 at 10:29 am

    Here’s the link to the Masha Gessen piece — Autocracy: Rules for Survival.

    Rule #1 is believe the autocrat when he tells you what he plans to do. http://www2.nybooks.com/daily/s3/nov/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival.html

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  239. Deborah said on November 12, 2016 at 10:42 am

    My mother-in-law was in Germany going to art school when Hitler came to power. She went to hear him speak along with some other students, she said she was chilled to the bone, especially to how the crowds responded to him. She was born in Michigan but her father was German, who came to the US to go the the Art Institute in Chicago, he became a furniture designer in Michigan. He sent his daughter (my m-i-l) to Hamburg to learn about the world and get to know his German family. He got her back to the US before all hell broke loose, thank goodness. She’s 97 now and she voted for Hillary, she thinks of Trump more as a buffoon than a tyrant. I hope she’s right about that.

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  240. alex said on November 12, 2016 at 10:54 am

    I just spoke with my tenant who is the mother of biracial children and this has been a very rough week for her and her family. I learned that one of the kids on my street called a black child at school the N-word and the black child took his lunch tray and broke it in half over that kid’s head. Both were suspended and now they’re back in school.

    She deals with a rich clientele and says these people love to ooh and ahh over her little brown children but are frankly living under a rock when it comes to life’s realities.

    I’m heading out of town overnight to commiserate with friends elsewhere. As this thread’s getting so long, it’s nearly impossible to keep up with it on my iPhone so I’ll be in touch later. Peace and grace to you all.

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  241. Mary Ann said on November 12, 2016 at 10:55 am

    The Sinclair Lewis book, It Can’t Happen Here, written in the ’30’s, is a frighteningly accurate portrayal of the Trump ascendency to the White House. It should also be required reading for all Americans.

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  242. Jean Shaw said on November 12, 2016 at 11:02 am

    Alex, I had a message this morning from an old friend who is from Houston but has lived in west TX for 20 years. She can’t wrap her head around the number of gay friends she has who voted for Trump. “What makes them think they’re safe?”

    It’s the right question to ask, and I am deeply grieved that we are all being forced to ask it.

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  243. Sue said on November 12, 2016 at 11:11 am

    If he does continue to hold rallies, that might not be a bad thing. The folks showing up will be the hard-core, and will not listen forever to promises, and when he can’t deliver, he will need to find someone to blame. It won’t entirely be Democrats, he’s going to go after people in his own party when he doesn’t build the wall, kick out all the foreigners, take away healthcare or take over control of the female population’s bodies fast enough. So he’ll be out there on the road, telling people that it’s Paul Ryan’s fault or some other Republican who is ‘blocking’ him. And when those jobs don’t show up…
    I read yesterday of the possibility of an impeachment even before the next election cycle in order to get to a more-compliant Pence. Heaven knows there will be enough mis-steps to start something.

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  244. Jean Shaw said on November 12, 2016 at 11:15 am

    Oh look, someone tipped over a big rock, and Ed Meese crawled out.

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  245. Deborah said on November 12, 2016 at 11:41 am

    Little Bird just called to tell me that she’s on her way to a protest in Santa Fe at the state capital. She heard about it through Pants Suit Nation. I hope it’s well attended, but it sounds like it was pretty hastily organized. I would go to a protest too, if any of you folks in Chicago know of one please let me know ahead of time. My husband walked through a protest the other night in Chicago on his way home from the green line stop in the loop. It was too late for me to join in, that time, but I totally would if I find out about one.

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  246. Heather said on November 12, 2016 at 11:59 am

    There’s one going on right now by Millennium Park, Deborah. Although they say it’s less of a protest and more of a statement. https://www.facebook.com/events/1136143383148815/

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  247. basset said on November 12, 2016 at 12:22 pm

    At an Academy Sports gun counter yesterday, guy next to me was buying a pistol and said to me, “Everyone at our house is getting guns for Christmas this year. Now that Trump’s in, we’re all gonna be Americans.”

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  248. Suzanne said on November 12, 2016 at 12:54 pm

    “She can’t wrap her head around the number of gay friends she has who voted for Trump.” It happens. As I recall, at least one of Hitler’s inner circle at the beginning (Gestapo?) was openly gay. He was snuffed out in the Night of the Long Knives.

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  249. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 12:55 pm

    DO NOT NORMALIZE TRUMP! Is that sufficiently alarmist for you?

    If we want to have kumbaya moments and talk about coming together after the election, it has to go both ways. Let’s see Trump supporters show support for African-Americans, women, LBGTQ people, Muslims, immigrants, other races, other religions, anybody who isn’t their idea of Real America. I plan on standing with vulnerable populations until I see evidence that they are safe.

    I see no reason to believe that Trump respects the Constitution and governing norms. We have a long history of his writing and interviews that indicates otherwise. The things he said in the campaign were not just campaign rhetoric, they were what he believes. This is a man who still thinks the Central Park Five should be executed. This is a man who thinks the Chinese government did a good job in Tianamen Square. He is a bully. I’m not going to pretend that a bully in the presidency is just a normal president that I disagree with on policy grounds.

    Checks and balances only work if people are willing to use them. How many Republicans facing election showed the courage to stand up to Trump? The Republican base wanted the authoritarian, even if the openness of the bigotry and racism made them squirm a bit. Will the courts stand up to him? We don’t know.

    If you voted for him and say to yourself, oh I can’t see him really doing that, I hope you’re right, but conservatives who say that he used to be a liberal Democrat are wrong. Trump is sui generis, he cares not for your political principles. We know his record, even if he hasn’t served in political office. He cares about Trump, building himself up, crushing his enemies, and feeding his ego. Our checks and balances and norms are already overwhelmed by him; he’s coming into office with financial entanglements too complex and undisclosed for our ethics and conflict of interest policies to deal with.

    There is no precedent for Trump in the US. I don’t think it’s safe to give him the benefit of the doubt. I need to see evidence that he cares more about the Constitution, all of it, and all Americans, before I’m ready to give him the benefit of the doubt. You don’t give an abuser the benefit of the doubt just because he says he isn’t going to hit you anymore.

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  250. Deborah said on November 12, 2016 at 1:05 pm

    Oh shoot, Heather. I’m not mobilized to go anywhere right now (that translates to, I’m still in my PJs).

    Little Bird sent me a text just now of the protest in Santa Fe, she said the speeches were over and it was quite moving but now they’re trying to get everyone to dance (oh no). LB also said there weren’t very many people there, a little more than 100, lots of Hispanics and Native Americans (great!). Not surprising since it was hastily organized. I shouldn’t be judgmental it’s definitely a good start. They gave out Tshirts that said “You are here”.

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  251. Heather said on November 12, 2016 at 1:11 pm

    I didn’t go either. I needed a couple days of self-care, which is going to include cleaning my mess of a home, getting healthy food, and finally fixing my dishwasher. Can’t work to make a difference when I’m depleted from stress and not eating.

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  252. Jerri said on November 12, 2016 at 1:12 pm

    I’ve re-read enough of Berlin Diary this morning to be reminded that many Germans thought of Hitler as a buffoon at first. Here’s William L. Shirer’s first view of him at a Nuremberg rally in 1934: “He was clad in a rather worn gabardine trench-coat, his face had no particular expression at all–I expected it to be stronger–and for the life of me I could not quite comprehend what hidden springs he undoubtedly unloosed in the hysterical mob which was greeting him so wildly.”

    Sue, if Trump continues the rallies, it’s right out of the Hitler playbook. Shirer notes that Hitler explained the technique to the foreign correspondents, summed up as “the half-million men would go back to their towns and villages and preach the new gospel with new fanaticism.”

    My concern is that the normalization process, detailed in Masha Gessen’s article, is already underway. Kathleen Parker at the Washington Post’s last 2 columns are good examples.

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  253. Deborah said on November 12, 2016 at 1:17 pm

    The AIA (American Institute of Architects) came out with a statement through their CEO, about basically looking forward to working with President Elect Trump on infrastructure. I was happy to see that many of them are as incensed as my husband was when he read it https://archpaper.com/2016/11/aia-pledges-work-donald-trump-membership-recoils/

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  254. basset said on November 12, 2016 at 1:26 pm

    Suzanne, that was Ernst Rohm:


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  255. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 1:35 pm

    No fresh start: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/11/fresh-start

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  256. Sue said on November 12, 2016 at 1:35 pm

    Jerri I understand that and I do take Trump seriously. But – Germans didn’t have a horrific recent example, cited repeatedly, of what happens when you elect a Hitler. They didn’t have social media, they didn’t have sanctuary cities, they didn’t have much in the way of minority-majority communities. I believe Trump’s rallies will be smaller not larger, attended by the kind of people who aren’t inclined to worship him but to demand that he do what he promised. We’re working through what we thought was a waning Tea Party movement right now, those folks don’t blindly follow a leader. I say let’s let Donald learn what happens when he can’t just stand up there and promise shit that he can’t deliver.
    The Bundys aren’t going to ‘work’ with Donald Trump if he doesn’t give them what they want. And if he does he’ll anger other parts of the population, and will then have to deal with them. Apply that to immigration, women’s issues, energy, environment – he can appease the freaks but you can’t normalize with such a diverse population. He won’t control a compliant base, he’ll inadvertently poke hornets’ nests, over and over again.

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  257. Sue said on November 12, 2016 at 1:39 pm

    Deborah @253, that’s fantastic.

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  258. Jakash said on November 12, 2016 at 1:54 pm

    From Basset’s #247: “Everyone at our house is getting guns for Christmas this year. Now that Trump’s in, we’re all gonna be Americans.” Ah, yes, guns are like chocolates for the overheated portion of the NRA crowd. Appropriate for any occasion! Obama’s elected: Gotta buy guns before he takes them all away! Hillary MIGHT be elected: Gotta buy guns before she repeals the second amendment! NRA’s preferred candidate wins: Gotta buy guns to celebrate! Nothing represents the true spirit of the birthday of the Prince of Peace quite like buying guns, don’t you know. Yet they think somebody saying “Happy Holidays” is a soldier in the war on Christmas.

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  259. brian stouder said on November 12, 2016 at 1:59 pm

    Sue – honestly, this sentence lost me at the bakery:

    But – Germans didn’t have a horrific recent example, cited repeatedly, of what happens when you elect a Hitler.

    The Germans had just lost a catastrophic war (in the equivalent of the 1990’s, from here), so there’s that…

    One thing that the Germans of those days could point to, as Trump repeatedly has, was that – while the Allies didn’t flatten their cities during the Great War (as they ultimately did do, in the war Hitler started), they did “rig the system” and charge the post-WWI German nation with reparations, and then literally take their national wealth.

    Then, being “anti-establishment” really would be a net-plus to the electorate, and I can see that parallel.

    That wave of German public resentment is (I think) viscerally (as opposed to factually) quite similar to the American wave that Trump surfed in 2016… but beyond saying that, I’d very much shy away from Hitler-analogies. Human beings are generally small-minded, selfish, and cruel; it’s in our nature. While we must not give in to that, nor use it as a blanket excuse for whatever terrible impulses we might indulge, still – we 2016 Americans should never default to the Hitler thing, because then we’re well and truly off into the weeds.

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  260. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 2:05 pm

    I see a rhinoceros; do you? http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/magazine/a-time-for-refusal.html

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  261. brian stouder said on November 12, 2016 at 2:12 pm

    Only a RINO would see that!

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  262. Sue said on November 12, 2016 at 2:26 pm

    Brian my point is not that there is no relationship between what Germans were thinking and feeling, and what a portion of the American electorate is thinking and feeling, but that Germans did not have a recent example – cited repeatedly prior to their election – of what the aftermath might be. We do – the whole world does. That’s the closest I’m getting to the dreaded Hitler analogy.
    I repeat – let Donald learn what happens when he can’t just stand up there and promise shit that he can’t deliver. Continued rallies will be useful in a diverse country where the losing candidate got more votes than the winner, and the winner’s appeal is to a group that will accept nothing less than what was promised.

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  263. Jakash said on November 12, 2016 at 2:40 pm

    Trying to decide which of these versions of “Peace, Love and Understanding” is the right balm for my frazzled nerves…



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  264. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 2:44 pm

    I disagree that Donald has to deliver. Donald can just blame Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell (unless they capitulate), the very bad media for not reporting the good news (he’s already primed this attack), Democrats for blocking him (those corrupt elites who voted for Hillary), and the courts, when he runs afoul of the Constitution (I dread this one). It will never be Donald’s fault, and holding the rallies to feed the raw meat to the base is probably a strategic win.

    The hope would be that the “Good Germans” would finally stand up, but I’m not willing to count on that. They’ve already demonstrated that they value something else more than they value other people’s humanity, so I’m not holding my breath.

    The DLCC is the Dem organization working on winning state legislatures if you want to throw some money that way, to fix things for the next census and redistricting.

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  265. brian stouder said on November 12, 2016 at 2:46 pm

    I think Trump is a genuine cipher; partly by design*, and partly because he does not know what he does not know (Rumsfeld’s “unknown unkowns”!)

    And indeed – I certainly have nothing beyond conventional knowledge of things; and I understand that ‘strategic uncertainty’ and/or ‘international uncertainty’ is a BAD thing, and can lead to terribly mistaken decisions and actions – not just by us, but by other nations.

    And I cannot help but believe that if it came out that Secretary Clinton’s campaign was quietly working with a foreign power – an international adversary – the Republican congress would ALREADY be ramping up an impeachment trial, on a charge of treason.

    How, in God’s Name, can Donald John Trump explain or defend that his God Damned campaign was in constant contact with Vlad Putin & the Russkies??!!

    *He was telling Chris Matthews that he wanted to be unpredictable, internationally – which made my jaw drop! One reads the history of the early 1960’s, and JFK (et al) leading us from one near catastrophe to the next (Cuba leaps to mind, and then the blockade of Berlin)

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  266. brian stouder said on November 12, 2016 at 2:50 pm

    forgot to finish the asterisk, as follows:

    *He was telling Chris Matthews that he wanted to be unpredictable, internationally – which made my jaw drop! One reads the history of the early 1960’s, and JFK (et al) leading us from one near catastrophe to the next (Cuba leaps to mind, and then the blockade of Berlin) – and realizes that strategic uncertainty is a recipe for DISASTER!! The whole “value” of nuclear weapons, is that your adversary knows what would trigger their use, and then DOESN’T DO that!! If the adversary DOESN’T know what will trigger their use, then you’re in a game of ‘brinksmanship’, which one cannot ‘win’ anything like what one can lose

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  267. Suzanne said on November 12, 2016 at 3:00 pm

    Sherri, I don’t expect Trumpists to hold Trump’s feet to the fire, either. Despite their worship of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, they are very used to blaming everybody & everything else: immigrants, liberals, blacks, uppity women, the system, government regulations, government itself, and that’s only a start. Ryan is a weenie (as a commenter on some article I read stated: He needs to take a look at Anthony Weiner’s texts to see what a pair of balls looks like) and Trump will eat him up & spew him out if he bucks him.

    I think only the Notorious RBG stands between us and doom.

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  268. Jerri said on November 12, 2016 at 3:02 pm

    I don’t cheapen the H-word with casual conversation and I save the Shirer quotes mainly for Brian (thank you!) and my husband. Brian brought up the feelings of resentment and anger at the Treaty of Versailles that were so strong in post-WWI Germany. Hitler capitalized on and encouraged the belief that Germany was betrayed from the inside. The scapegoating of Muslim and Mexican immigrants, the abuse directed at Jewish journalists who are mildly critical of Trump and family seems familiar. It’s not the same but it rhymes a little.

    I think the Bundys, etc will give Trump a lot of leeway because he is their guy. They’re in it for the long haul, not just an election cycle. I regret that Paul Ryan appears to be in good graces at the moment. He can do more damage than almost anyone in the short and long term, to my future and that of many of us here.

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  269. alex said on November 12, 2016 at 3:06 pm

    I think Trump is probably shitting himself because he really didn’t expect to be where he is now.

    Just saw a bizarre scene on 82nd at the Castleton exit in Indy. Didn’t have time to snap a photo. Man in a red Trump cap standing in traffic and holding up a sign that reads QUIT-CRYIN-A-BIG-BABIES!

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  270. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 3:25 pm

    I think it’s time for me to call my therapist up and go back for help in figuring out how to talk with my family. The elephants in the room have gotten bigger.


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  271. Sue said on November 12, 2016 at 3:38 pm

    Feet to the fire:

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  272. susan said on November 12, 2016 at 5:06 pm

    Holy shit! Did you see the size of the anti-Trump rally in L.A.???

    Not just massive, but yu-u-u-u-u-ggggge.

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  273. susan said on November 12, 2016 at 5:07 pm

    Oh whoops. Strike that. Venezuela! Sheesh. It’s yuuuuge, though.

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  274. Deborah said on November 12, 2016 at 5:32 pm

    I’m sorry to say this, I know there are a lot of journalists among the commentariat here, but when I read what the media is saying about what Trump supporters are expecting of their president elect, I’m having a hard time believing it. Everone got it so wrong pre-election, how can they possibly know now what these people are thinking and how they will behave if Trump doesn’t do what he promised? Maybe I’m paranoid now, but it seems to me we will have to watch for it when it’s really happening. It doesn’t sooth me when I read that they will hold his feet to the fire. Who knows what they’ll do? It seems like anyone’s guess, especially this early.

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  275. brian stouder said on November 12, 2016 at 5:53 pm

    By the way, Rachel Maddow’s name came up, up-thread, and I’d seen elsewhere that she and Chris Matthews tangled a little, on election night.

    I asked Uncle Google about that, and landed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXxGPDBRUzs

    and I think Rachel held the guy off.

    Indeed, I’m biased; I love Rachel, and while Chris is cedible (he’s one of those guys, like Lawrence O’Donnell, who’s walked-the-walk, and been ‘in the room’ while things get accomplished) – he’s also Over-bearing, with a capital ‘O’!!

    My lovely wife and the older young folks always remark on his penchant for talking right over his guests – all the damned time!

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  276. brian stouder said on November 12, 2016 at 5:54 pm

    …plus, his middle name might be “Mansplain”

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  277. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 6:19 pm

    Even in private, Mr. Zuckerberg has continued to resist the notion that Facebook can unduly affect how people think and behave. In a Facebook post circulated on Wednesday to a small group of his friends, which was obtained by The New York Times, Mr. Zuckerberg challenged the idea that Facebook had a direct effect on the way people voted.

    So, let me get this straight. Facebook doesn’t have a direct effect on the way people vote, but does on the way people shop? Got it.


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  278. Sue said on November 12, 2016 at 6:35 pm

    Not to pile on here, but just to help people be informed. Please remember this guy is a Dem in name only.

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  279. Charlotte said on November 12, 2016 at 7:14 pm

    I know there are some knitters on here — and some fans of the Go Fug Yourself gals — they’ve started a Fug Nation group on Ravelry, and I’ve launched a thread to start knitting for the Standing Rock activists.

    It’s going to be cold. They’ll need hats and mittens and socks. So if you’re like me, and knitting is your go-to for terror, despair and panic — let’s send the folks putting their bodies between us and climate disaster some hats!

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  280. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 12, 2016 at 7:23 pm

    Trump has 60.3 million votes; that compares to George Bush having 62 million votes in 2004, John McCain with 59.9 million in 2008, & Romney 60.9 million in 2012. It’s not about the surge, it’s about the sag. And either way, some 90 million who did. not. vote. That’s the target of opportunity for someone wanting a different sort of outcome in 2020.

    But Sherri, I’m with you in rhetoric and spirit; we come at it in different angles, but I think the positive side is going to be making sure that those who “held their nose” and voted for the guy who used racist and racialist arguments and imagery and incitement are justifying having done so by hoping for a change-agent and demolisher of the special interests in DC. They’re nervous about having done so, and pushing for accountability for what has been said and supported keeps the bar higher for what Trump has to say and do in office. And given that I don’t think he can show even token progress on his stated “policy” aims, that’s going to result in a pretty quick collapse of his prospects in 2018.

    My resistance to Trump has been, in this area, based on a repeated assertion that it’s not that I think he’s as racist in intention as much as he’s been perfectly willing to use racism as a wedge issue and a motivational piece of leverage. I’d argue that’s worse than an innate, cultural racist perspective from someone who’s always felt and/or been taught that way. He used it, though, more to push a negative tone and help drive voter motivations and turn-out down than to get voters to the polls. The numbers aren’t showing a surge; it’s the sag that lost the election more than he was able to win it.

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  281. Deborah said on November 12, 2016 at 7:24 pm

    Great idea Charlotte, Little Bird knits, she will be interested in this.

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  282. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 7:31 pm

    Chris Mathews is a Villager, through and through. He won’t stand up to Herr Trump. He’ll suck right up to power. So will a lot of DC media.


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  283. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 12, 2016 at 7:34 pm

    I’m very curious to see how National Review handles Trump, too. Matthews is fine with anyone if they say something nice about Tip O’Neill first.

    Since I’ve been asked: Obama had 65.9 million against Romney. I think it was more like 68 v. McCain, but I’m not finding that as easily.

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  284. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 12, 2016 at 7:42 pm

    Did y’all see this? I spent most of Friday with a solid crew of 90 year olds, and I second Garrison.


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  285. brian stouder said on November 12, 2016 at 7:46 pm

    Jeff, an interesting (and thought-provoking) post, as always.

    Your concerns about southern and eastern Ohio really caught my attention, months ago (well ahead of when the Big Punditocracy finally noted the disaffected white folks) – and Michael Moore makes a very (very) similar argument about what the hell happened in Michigan.

    Moore noted that something like 86,000 ballots in Michigan had votes cast for every office except for president!!

    That’s a flat failure for Secretary Clinton’s much-vaunted campaign.

    There will be books written about the 2016 campaign, and I betcha the titles of the best ones will ahve the word “disaffected” in the title or the subtitle.

    We’ve seen the disaffected white folks (classically – Appalachian; but including others); but also disaffected black Americans.

    Latinos may not have felt they had the luxury of saying “pass” on the presidential slot, but a significant number of other ethnic groups – and presumably including some number of whites – did just that.

    And btw – I have no beef with the damned polls. The razor-thin margins of the actual election shows that the polls were actually right; we were within the margins of error on them

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  286. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 7:54 pm

    Suburban parents,


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  287. Sherri said on November 12, 2016 at 7:57 pm

    Normalizing Trump.


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  288. Sue said on November 12, 2016 at 8:21 pm

    Charlotte – link?

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  289. brian stouder said on November 12, 2016 at 8:33 pm

    I hope Rachel gets Mr Navarro onto her show; he sounds like all the best teachers I’ve ever known

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  290. Deborah said on November 12, 2016 at 8:36 pm

    Editorial and legal judgement lapse by the NYTs for sure, Sherri. I have these thoughts floating around in my head about judgement in general. I’ve mentioned this before here, this is a huge problem in these modern times. Good judgement is lacking in so many places.

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  291. St Bitch said on November 12, 2016 at 8:48 pm

    Really like the Rachel Maddow interview with Elizabeth Warren that follows the Rachel v Chris immigration standoff linked by Brian @275.

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  292. Sherri said on November 13, 2016 at 1:20 am

    If, ultimately, the real reason you voted for Trump was because he promised to start shutting doors that have been opened for people who do not fit a narrow definition of American, you should understand you are in for a fight. It’s now my turn to say it: I want my country back.


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  293. Sherri said on November 13, 2016 at 2:20 am

    Well, we know what principled NeverTrumper Lindsey Graham wants for his capitulation. He’ll capitulate without it, of course.


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  294. Sherri said on November 13, 2016 at 2:28 am

    Lessons from Central Asian Autocracies: http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/trumpmenbashi/

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  295. Jeff (the mild-mannered one) said on November 13, 2016 at 7:24 am

    The whole question of young men voting for Trump: I’d agree, they’re probably doing so out of what they think is their self-interest, and there’s a bipartisan argument that they’re very likely to be hurt badly (not worst, but badly) by the likely outcomes of his administration.

    I’m stuck with education and motivation, though, because I spent “off-line” a big chunk of a day late last week arguing with a man of my community, a small business owner, a religious and compassionate man in ways he tries hard to act on without public attention, who’s pretty intelligent as I’d measure from ten years conversation. And he is entirely convinced that we should go back to a property-ownership requirement for voting, at least for levies.

    He was in line behind a clump of college students who rattled on at length in his unwilling earshot, and he’s livid. He’s absolutely certain that you shouldn’t vote unless you have a personal concrete stake in the election at hand, and some largely understanding of the candidates than “Freddie on the floor told me.” I mustered the arguments I’m sure almost anyone else here would have, but he’s (to date) unshakeable. He’s also not going to do anything about it, but if he had the chance to vote for that, he did. He voted, as you’ve no doubt already guessed, for Trump. My arguments as to his unfitness were met with the usual counter-arguments for the other major party candidate’s unfitness; my concerns about his policy outcomes were dealt with by assertions as to what this Ohio employer thinks he really is going to do. In the end, I asked him “don’t you think one or the other of us should not be allowed to vote by your earlier argument? Somebody is working from too little information here.” He smiled and said, without a hesitation: “I’m not worried about people like you voting, Jeff; it’s them. You know who I mean.”

    The question always has been, I guess: how in a democracy do you help the current majority understand why it is in their greater interests to let “them” vote? The ignorant, the undeserving, the uncommitted, the ones without a stake in the prevailing state of affairs? That’s also at the heart of the ongoing voter suppression/ease of voting debate. I have my own qualms about “making voting as easy as shopping for a car” as I heard Warren say. Do even I want some hurdle, some test of interest more than “a guy picked me up and brought me down here”? But if I do, I’m standing with my merchant neighbor who wants college students barred from increasing his property taxes, and I suspect would like no one to vote for president or senator who can’t discuss GDP to his satisfaction.

    Well, on to preach on Gideon. Be well, a new week awaits. Wasn’t Dave Chappelle incredible?

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  296. ROGirl said on November 13, 2016 at 8:46 am

    A rant about Trump from a self-described rich white guy.


    My sister-in-law from Toronto called me last night. My 23 year old niece was worried about me, wondering if I had been subject to any anti-semitic language or attacks. She might travel to New York to join the protests. I assured them nothing of the sort had happened, but the haters have been unleashed.

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  297. CHarlotte said on November 13, 2016 at 9:29 am

    Here’s the Ravelry group link: http://www.ravelry.com/groups/fug-nation-knits

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  298. brian stouder said on November 13, 2016 at 11:00 am

    RO Girl – an interesting link!

    And it ends with another link, to a 30-second “kiss cam” link – which got me laughing, so it’s all good

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  299. Sherri said on November 13, 2016 at 12:30 pm

    Your property-owning friend either has a limited notion of what a concrete stake means, an flawed notion of how rental markets work, and/or better faith in his fellow property owners than is warranted by evidence.

    Do parents of school children who are renters have a concrete stake in a school levy? Surely one’s children count as a concrete stake.

    Renters do pay property taxes, just not directly. Property owners charge rents to cover their expenses and make money. Yes, an increase in their expenses may temporarily cut into their profits, or might even drive them out of the market, but that is the way markets work, and not a reason to take the right to vote away from other people. Apartment owners have plenty enough power to defeat levies as political actors making their arguments in the arena; I’ve seen it happen.

    I’m sure your friend is compassionate and cares about improving his community, but some of his fellow property owners are more concerned with preserving what’s theirs than helping anybody else. “If you wanted to have children, that’s your business, why should I be expected to pay for them?” School levies, at least in the areas I’ve worked on, routinely deal with the fact that no more than 20-25% of the population has school-age children, and not all of that population can even vote, because they’re not citizens. If your friend thinks his fellow property-owners are benign philosopher-kings who would never think or say such a thing, my experience suggests he’s mistaken.

    Your friend is lazy. Rather than get involved and do the hard work to win elections, he wants to rig them by taking the vote away from people who are likely to vote against him. He wants a free ride, at the expense of his fellow citizens.

    It happens that on a levy, your friend may bear a larger part of the burden. On a sales tax, the poor bear a larger burden, not on the total contribution but on the fraction of their income that goes to the tax. Should we only allow people below a certain income level to vote on sales and other regressive taxes?

    The arrogance of white male property owning philosopher-kings…

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  300. Dave said on November 13, 2016 at 12:53 pm

    Have there ever been this many comments before?

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  301. beb said on November 13, 2016 at 1:01 pm

    If you’re not feeling depressed enough here’s food to drive you to suicide. Yes, the source is “Cracked” the online extension of a Mad Magazine imitator but read through this and tell me where the satiric excess begins.


    tl;dr is that as a nation we distrust other people more than at any time in the last 45 years. And the war, if it comes, will be an ISIS style reign of terror that delegitimizes government. There are on the order of 200 anti-government hate groups already. Civil War II will be a game of whack-a-mole.

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  302. Deborah said on November 13, 2016 at 1:06 pm

    Dave, I think there were when Nancy found that guy to be a plagiarist a few years ago. I can’t remember his name.

    I don’t watch the Sunday talk shows but I read that Kellyann Conman was on one today and said that Trump will meet with Congress on his Inauguration Day to repeal and replace Obamacare. And somewhere else I read that Trump said there won’t be any gap between repeal and replace. I don’t know about you but I can’t wait to see how they pull that off, and I can’t wait to see what they replace it with because they’ve promised it’s going to be better.

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  303. Deborah said on November 13, 2016 at 1:12 pm

    Brace yourselves http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-corruption-will-be-endless

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  304. Dave said on November 13, 2016 at 2:14 pm

    Timothy Goeglein, Deborah, righteous Fort Wayne native, who published tormented columns in Nancy’s former employer’s rag.

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  305. Dave said on November 13, 2016 at 2:21 pm

    Very good memory, Deborah, I had to go look, I hadn’t thought about that but there were 571 responses to that entry.


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  306. Sherri said on November 13, 2016 at 2:41 pm

    I’m feeling discouraged. I went to church today, but couldn’t sit through the whole service. I couldn’t sit there and pretend that everything was the same, that my white congregation of Trump voters and Clinton voters could just reconcile and move on as if this had been a normal campaign. I left early, before the Eucharist, because I was not spiritually in a place to participate in the Eucharist. As I left, another couple was leaving, a couple I’m friends with, often chat with, have served on numerous committees with. I’m not surprised that they’re Republicans. They’re not surprised that I’m a Democrat. We talked about the election as we were leaving, and my problem with sitting in church became even more apparent.

    They just disagreed that there was anything racist about Trump’s campaign, or Trump. “He’s just a politician, not used to parsing his words.” “He’s treated all the women in his life in an exemplary fashion.” “He moderated that thing about registering US Muslims.” “It was a media exaggeration.”

    When I told them I didn’t watch TV news, and was just using Trump’s own words and actions, then they moved to the what about Clinton? “But what about what Hillary did to those women?” “What about Bill’s mentor?” “Bill was just as racist.”

    I love these people. We hugged when we left. They’re really nice people. They just don’t see what the big deal is. They think Trump will be fine.

    I have a hard time sitting in church, after a campaign where an candidate has repeatedly attacked the vulnerable and the other, and pretending that didn’t happen.

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  307. Deborah said on November 13, 2016 at 3:07 pm

    I appreciate this place where I can vent. I hurt. Deeply. My daughter will no doubt lose the health insurance she has now, which has been excellent. What will she have in the future? I have no idea. I realize that people have it way worse than I do, and I should probably just shut up. Sorry if I’m annoying you.

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  308. Sherri said on November 13, 2016 at 3:39 pm

    Ezra Klein does a postmortem: http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/11/13578618/why-did-trump-win

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  309. Julie Robinson said on November 13, 2016 at 3:48 pm

    Sherri, if you had trouble sitting in church, imagine how your pastor may have feLt leading worship. Our daughter has been in a very dark place and wasn’t sure how she could be a healer for others when she was in such raw pain herself. That she got there at all was thanks to good self-care, going to a party with friends, and a large measure of grace.

    Deborah, vent away. That’s what we’re here for.

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  310. Sherri said on November 13, 2016 at 4:29 pm

    Jolene, my heart goes out to your daughter, and to Jeff(tmmo). I know leading worship today was difficult. There are hard questions that I think the church needs to address.

    There are also hard questions for the media: http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2016/11/04/what-happens-when-mistrust-wins-my-speech-at-the-colombian-national-journalism-prize/

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